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在逛對岸論壇看到的,看完之後真的覺得誠信是一件很重要的事 不管是在學術界或業界亦然,個人行為「也許」會影響到一整個國家 文章有點長,有興趣的可以慢慢看完 ---- letter from a professor majored in ME,U OF MICHIGAN,US Dear xxx: I would like to inform you of the situation relevant to Chinese graduate students here, at least at our department, which makes it very difficult for us to accept graduate students from China in the future. Over about one year period, we have had 6 Chinese Ph.D. students quit their RAship and Ph.D. studies. The reason for them to leave was not that they could not continue, it was rather because they want to have a job now (a higher salary, with a hope that the companies will apply for their green card status. They came with thier promises to pursue their Ph.D. degrees, we paid tuition for them to take courses for their Master degree, and we taught and helped them in their research capabilities. Once they got their M.S. degree in Mechanical Engeering, because of the excellent job market in the U.S. at this time, it is relatively easy for them to find a job. In a way we felt that we were used as a step for those Chinese students to come here, and get their master's degree, then get their jobs. We pay approximately $45-50 K/year for each Ph.D. student, including the tuition, health insurance, various fees, lab and computer fees, and monthly salary, we also put a lot of time and efforts for them. They (most of them) also did good research work as assistants. However, we don't get credit because we don't produce PH.D's, which is one of our major purposes as an institution of high education. On the other hand, they have their particular interests which are also understandable, for example, financial pressure, and wishes to have their green card applications on the way asap. This situation also happened to my Chinese Ph.D.student. He is very talented and did a good job in research. However, after he got his M.S. in M.E., he resigned very recently. We still let him stay here presently (with salary) for one more month, otherwise he will have to repay his tuition, which is over $10K. Although we are very considerate for those students, the consequences are obvious: (1) It greatly degraded the reputation of Chinese graduate students who apply for admission. Some professors address those as "very unethical", "you really cannot trust them when they promise you to pursue their Ph.D. degrees; under your supervision", " you feel you are so stupid as cheated by your own student". It really created some resentment. Actually, I know, as of this time, there are a couple of more students looking for a job or already got a job offer, but not telling their advisors. They will quit at the last minute before they leave. This situation will certainly get backfired, and the damage will mostly be transferred onto the future applicants from China. (2) Some professors or research scientists have already made their decisions not to consider Chinese student applications. Although it should not and cannot be a policy, it is the individual's decision in selecting future. Ph.D. students with preference, and in my opinion, with good reasons. It will make it much more difficult for us to bring in Ph.D. students from China. For example, as you know, I was looking for one or two Ph.D. students later this year, and I have a vacancy for a Ph.D. student now. But I will not consider Chinese applicants. At the same time I feel truely sorry, for I know, especially many graduate students from Tsinghua University of very high qualifications sent email applications to me (and to other professors), including yourself. Now I have to inform you that please try your applications elsewhere, or other professors. In our department, many Chinese graduate students know me and we have a very friendly relationships. The faculty members know that too. One told me: "You try to help them, then they screw you up!" I spent time to write this email message, for your information and considerations, as to how this situation may be somehow alleviated. You may discuss this with your close friends and classmates, I am not sure you should broadly propagate this message. But I did present a fact and an opinion ------- 印象中版上好像有這家學校的faculty,若有不妥請來信告知,會立馬刪除 --



※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc)
◆ From: 163.14.35.70
1F:推 TheEconomist:謝謝分享 誠信真的很重要 出國並不是為了綠卡找工作! 03/14 14:34
2F:推 chieher:感謝台灣留學生前輩留下的好名聲 <(_ _)> 03/14 14:38
3F:推 l17:大陸學生人超多,競爭非常激烈。想必去美國也是不擇手段吧XD 03/14 14:39
4F:推 yuhung:前幾周為了準備UMich ME的PhD Phone interview 03/14 14:39
5F:→ yuhung:和一位剛從UMich回來的學長(現在是教授了XD)聊了一下 03/14 14:39
6F:→ yuhung:他說當年他去時,台灣學生幾乎都沒有fellowship 03/14 14:39
7F:→ yuhung:通常就是RA和TA而已,而大陸學生都有 03/14 14:40
8F:推 chieher:話說這篇是不是有點久了?我去google有搜到2007的文章 03/14 14:40
9F:→ yuhung:那位學長說"很多時候明明知道自己比其他大陸學生強,但學校 03/14 14:40
10F:→ yuhung:還是只給他們錢,幸好UMich現在改了" 03/14 14:41
11F:推 YASUKOHUANG:不曉得美國教授的心中,會不會把Taiwanese跟Chinese想 03/14 14:42
12F:→ YASUKOHUANG:成一樣?? 03/14 14:42
13F:推 hotkey:thx for sharing~ 03/14 14:42
14F:→ yuhung:應該不會一樣,至少我認識的都分得清楚 03/14 14:42
15F:推 happyennovy:不會一樣 幫我寫推薦信的老師之一是OSU畢業的 03/14 14:43
16F:→ yuhung:光是過去幾年,有些學校給大陸學生補助比台灣學生多這點 03/14 14:44
17F:→ happyennovy:他說他念的時候台灣學生都有念完 同屆大陸學生都念一 03/14 14:44
18F:→ yuhung:就看得出他們分得清楚Taiwan和China了 XD 03/14 14:44
19F:→ happyennovy:半就跑了... 所以很多美國學校對大陸學生印象不太好 03/14 14:44
20F:→ happyennovy:雖然大陸補助有多一點 但是台灣和大陸錄取率差很多 03/14 14:45
21F:→ yuhung:另外我上周第二次和UMich(快給我AD啦QAQ)Phone interview時 03/14 14:45
22F:→ yuhung:那位美國教授還在問我的話中特別提到"Taiwan" 03/14 14:45
23F:→ yuhung:所以我想他們是分得清楚的 03/14 14:46
24F:推 Geigemachen:我上UIUC EE PhD,面試過程中有對岸學生對我敵意很強 03/14 15:26
25F:→ Geigemachen:我想也許他不滿意教授收我而不收對岸學生吧 03/14 15:27
26F:→ Geigemachen:我越來越能體會美國人不喜歡對岸學生人格的心情了 03/14 15:28
27F:→ victoryuy:美國教授應該是最清楚這些亞洲人的分別的吧 03/14 15:38
28F:推 jdgcranna:值得深思啊~感謝台灣留學的前輩~我會努力的! 03/14 17:07
29F:推 Chaika:謝謝分享 03/14 20:27
30F:推 somnambule:真是自私...... 03/14 20:51
31F:→ hereafter:還有一種是拿錢過幾年就轉系...我遇到的例子是印度人 03/14 20:53
32F:→ hereafter:結果隔年印度人錄取率就真的... 03/14 20:54
33F:→ hereafter:一般有收台灣學生的學校應該分得清楚,至少我看系上文件 03/14 20:55
34F:→ hereafter:都是分得相當清楚 03/14 20:55
35F:→ SkyLark2001:excellent job market in the U.S....看到這段就知道 03/14 20:55
36F:→ SkyLark2001:這封信的時間大概至少五年前吧... 03/14 20:56
37F:推 reinherd:我猜這封信有點歷史了 因為目前job market......謝謝分享 03/14 21:21
38F:推 ndr:這種事二十幾年前就開始有了 03/14 21:25
39F:→ ndr:指終國學生的這種作為 03/14 21:26
40F:推 boblu:有些地方還是會搞混 至少在過去十年內啦 03/14 22:04
41F:→ boblu:我有同學申請學校被回說(大意)你們GRE都靠機經或PBT時間差 03/14 22:05
42F:→ boblu:所以我們不承認。 03/14 22:06
43F:推 momo4th:樓上說的情形應該全亞洲學生都這樣吧~ 03/14 22:12
44F:→ momo4th:另外,雖然大家口上都這樣說但大陸的錄取人數還是很多啊.. 03/14 22:14
45F:推 george31708:如果這封信是真的的話,可以去檢舉。 03/14 22:44
46F:推 porschesun:看到這不意外 有大陸同學拿到某大學Ph.D 念了一年 03/14 23:16
47F:→ porschesun:結果就找到工作 放棄他的Ph.D了 我相信這例子不算少數 03/14 23:17
48F:噓 FrozenRiver:這封信假的 2006UMich出來闢謠過 03/15 00:03
49F:推 FrozenRiver:並非噓原PO 只是紅得較明顯 推回來 希望謠言就此為止 03/15 00:06
50F:推 striking:不過我們在國外的表現多少會影響別人怎麼看待台灣, 03/15 00:35
51F:推 PinkQQ:感謝分享。這樣的情形老早發生久矣,老美很無法接受 03/15 01:28
52F:推 happyennovy:大陸的錄取人數多是因為申請人數也很多啊! 03/15 01:49
53F:→ happyennovy:錄取比例的話, 幫我寫推薦信的老師每個都說台灣錄取率 03/15 01:50
54F:→ happyennovy:比對面還高 03/15 01:50
55F:推 oplz:美國人的 drop out rate 也未必低呀... 03/15 02:14
56F:推 sp045899:我系上的中國學生也是原本念Phd 拿完錢找到工作就不念了 03/15 02:29
57F:→ alchian:這封的確很可疑 信太長 教授不會這樣寫 03/15 04:42
58F:→ uwmtsa:爬爬文就會發現許多台灣留學生的觀念也開始.... 03/15 04:46
59F:推 planetearth:為什麼graduate assistantship非得要讀完PhD才行? 03/15 05:27
60F:→ planetearth:又不是領薪水的時候沒幫老師做事 03/15 05:27
61F:→ planetearth:人本來想換工作就可以換工作吧 03/15 05:28
62F:推 kuyung:說假的可不可以麻煩把證據拿出來? 03/15 05:36
63F:推 buteo:沒有說非要唸完PhD不可 而是若來者有百分之七八十都是拿PhD 03/15 08:23
64F:→ buteo:的offer來 結果唸完master就走人 這樣也難怪會受爭議 03/15 08:23
65F:→ buteo:PhD的生涯是越後段貢獻越大 前一兩年可能光修課和教書就耗 03/15 08:24
66F:→ buteo:掉大量時間 對於研究著墨有限 但領的錢一樣 03/15 08:25
67F:推 Geigemachen:說這封信假的人,可以立刻公開你所說的闢謠信嗎? 03/15 08:47
68F:→ Geigemachen:我們怎麼知道這封拒絕信是假的,還是你的闢謠是假的? 03/15 08:47
69F:推 Geigemachen:即使校系出面否認,我們怎知不是避免歧視官司而說謊話? 03/15 09:18
70F:推 somerabbit:讀master 不是自己花錢嗎 教授有甚麼不滿 03/15 09:48
71F:推 Geigemachen:有些master有TA,RA,fellowship,學費減免;真爭議在PhD 03/15 10:00
72F:→ Geigemachen:爭議"名義上念PhD拿PhD的薪水,但打定主意只拿MS就走" 03/15 10:01
73F:→ Geigemachen:且非能力不足或是窮到不行才毀棄諾言,是一開始就故意 03/15 10:07
74F:推 towelll:不論真偽此信至少說明一個現象 顯示制度上和人性上的缺陷! 03/15 10:29
75F:→ lenux:抱歉沒有查證真偽 但私以為這種現象一定存在 值得討論分享:) 03/15 10:32
76F:推 Geigemachen:這現象我聽說很久,這封信特別處是嚴重到影響系所錄取 03/15 10:36
77F:→ george31708:這本來就不是甚麼了不起的事。沒有簽合約。拿PhD 薪水 03/15 11:18
78F:→ george31708:也是有工作才會拿到薪水。又不是甚麼偷偷摸摸的事。 03/15 11:18
79F:→ george31708:讀一讀選擇不繼續也是人家的自由。這篇信嚴重的地方是 03/15 11:19
80F:→ george31708:種族歧視。如果錄取學生的標準是國籍而且還可以明顯到 03/15 11:21
81F:→ george31708:寄信通知,那這個教授所遇到的問題非常嚴重。 03/15 11:22
82F:推 Geigemachen:歧視沒誠信的人與國籍,怎麼是"種族歧視"? 分類不妥 03/15 11:22
83F:→ Geigemachen:把 種族 與 國籍 混為一談,在法庭上是行不通的 03/15 11:23
84F:推 george31708:所以認定"從XX國來的都是沒誠信的人" 不涉及歧視? 03/15 11:25
85F:→ george31708:這種事情非常敏感,被抓到的話後果很嚴重。被開除事小 03/15 11:27
86F:→ george31708:嚴重的話會坐牢。 03/15 11:27
87F:推 Geigemachen:故你承認此事不是racial discrimination對吧? 03/15 11:29
88F:→ Geigemachen:頂多是nationality profiling 03/15 11:30
89F:→ Geigemachen:racial profiling在美都不違法,nationality profiling 03/15 11:30
90F:→ Geigemachen:其實法律上還有頗大勝面,只是輿論觀感問題而已 03/15 11:31
91F:→ george31708:兩個都有,這沒甚麼好辯的。nationality profiling 不 03/15 11:31
92F:→ george31708:會在這件事變得比較好聽。這很明顯是discrimination 03/15 11:32
93F:→ george31708:因為涉及到利益問題。 03/15 11:33
94F:推 Geigemachen:discrimiation與profiling在法律上差很大,生活中難分 03/15 11:33
95F:→ Geigemachen:更正上行:discrimination 03/15 11:34
96F:→ george31708:我不懂這有甚麼好辯的。生活上難分是因為沒有牽涉到利 03/15 11:35
97F:→ george31708:益。但如果像是employment 之類的事情,如果有明顯證 03/15 11:36
98F:→ george31708:據,這都是違法的。尤其像這封信那麼明顯。所以說是謠 03/15 11:37
99F:→ george31708:言還比較可能。真實的話,一定鬧非常大。 03/15 11:38
100F:推 Geigemachen:難說,系所可能為了避免爭議,事後淡化否認文件真實性 03/15 12:37
101F:→ Geigemachen:U of Michigan的朋友說會替我去機械系所問此事 03/15 12:37
102F:→ Geigemachen:就可知道此事到底是被河蟹的事實,有所本,或是謠言 03/15 12:38
103F:推 oplz:我也不懂這件事有甚麼好辯的? 這信是真是假跟事實上這種情況 03/15 13:33
104F:→ oplz:嚴重與否是兩件不同的事.. 很多事可以做不能說..會真的明白寫 03/15 13:33
105F:→ oplz:下白紙黑字的學校或教授不是太不敏感就是太不聰明了.. 03/15 13:34
106F:→ oplz:請人去問到這信是假的又如何? 是真的又怎樣? 力氣花在值得的 03/15 13:36
107F:→ oplz:地方比較有意義一點... 03/15 13:36
108F:推 SaraV:既然research做得很好 應該不至於不肯收中國的碩士班學生吧 03/15 15:40
109F:→ SaraV:大學一定要有多少ph D. students才算有水準?哪門子道理? 03/15 15:40
110F:→ FrozenRiver:後來google了一下,我沒有證據。但這封信也同樣無法證 03/15 20:52
111F:→ FrozenRiver:明其存在。 願意相信這封信的就無視我說過的話吧。 03/15 20:53
112F:→ FrozenRiver:個人認為這封信有些疑點,其一是上面推文所述的歧視, 03/15 20:55
113F:→ FrozenRiver:其他疑點恕我不在這一一指出。 03/15 20:56
114F:推 kuanglun:這事台灣學生也有吧,只是對岸的較頻繁. 我當年進U of MN 03/16 00:13
115F:→ kuanglun:EE時, 前無古人(根據其他科系學長說在那一年前 有3-4年 03/16 00:16
116F:→ kuanglun:沒有直接收台灣的學生) 據說就是台灣學生集體轉學. 03/16 00:17
117F:→ kuanglun:另外 美國教授都會把台灣和中國分的清楚. 我曾經在網上 03/16 00:20
118F:→ kuanglun:看過document 幫助教授了解個國家的教育背景的不同點. 03/16 00:22
119F:推 kuyung:第一 "說這封信是假的"跟"無法證明這封信的存在"是兩回事 03/16 00:23
120F:→ kuyung:請勿混為一談 第二 沒證據就請不要說某件事是假的 03/16 00:24
121F:→ kuanglun:那個document是明大graduate school做的. 映像中,就是在 03/16 00:24
122F:→ kuyung:就算如你所說是假的 沒證據的指控這在美國是很嚴重的 03/16 00:25
123F:→ kuanglun:幫教授要如何evaluate學生的gpa等等... 03/16 00:26
124F:→ kuanglun:所以我要說的是,你的行為多少都會影響你後面的人. 如果 03/16 00:27
125F:→ kuanglun:你的gpa很高,但表現不好,那麼你後面的學弟妹的錄取機會 03/16 00:29
126F:→ kuanglun:就會小了. 原PO的文章就有提清華. 03/16 00:30
127F:推 Geigemachen:Michigan的同學告訴我:該系比較少看到中國的ME學生 03/16 09:06
128F:→ Geigemachen:還有對台灣學生比較友善.. 03/16 09:06
129F:噓 TakeDoll:當年UMich的官方聲明不是說這封是教授的個人意見 03/17 21:18
130F:→ TakeDoll:不是代表學校嗎? 什麼時候變成這封是假的!!!??? 03/17 21:19
131F:推 Geigemachen:樓上一語點醒夢中人 03/18 11:18
132F:→ freepure:一開始不就說 來自教授的信嗎? XD 03/18 12:57







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