原文網址 http://clgaming.net/redtracker/topic/5805/?u=137&p=1 主要討論目前top elo和比賽的情況(就是有點無聊的風格) 這應該看的出將可能會是未來的改版方向(即將到來的賢者石/TF ult/CV nerf) ParoX: Keep in mind i'm no high elo player (currently 1700s and have been up to 1860), but I have had a history of playing competitive DOTA in inhouse leagues and cash prize tournies, and I'm an avid fan of the observer aspect of high level play. 先說我並不是高elo的玩家(目前1700最高曾到1860)， 然而我曾經在DOTA(註：就是Dota Allstar)一些很有競爭力的內戰和有獎金的比賽參賽， 而且我非常喜歡看一些高等級的遊戲。 One thing that occured to me from watching these qualifiers was that as an E-sport, the game is currently lacking somewhat in the early game action. The best moments for me were some of the early first bloods such as TSM vs EG where Regi did a ballsy initiate on Dan Dinh maokai jungle at blue before the minions had even spawned, with his team following up with CC and AoE for an amazing first blood. 從E-sport的角度來看，LOL欠缺的就是早期的一些動作(action)， 我看過最好的就像是在TSM vs EG裡面Regi對Dan Dinh的貓凱jungle藍點做出大膽的先發， 那時候甚至連小兵都還沒出生，然後他的隊伍緊接著一堆控場和範圍技拿到了FB。 These moments were sadly lacking for alot of the games, which were from a spectator viewpoint somewhat boring and passive, with most teams moving around safely in the jungle at level 1 before returning to lanes and farming passively and hoping that they could win their lanes and jungle based on the draft. 但是這種情況對於許多遊戲來說都沒有，所以從觀戰角度就會覺得無聊和被動， 所有隊伍都在lv1時jungle區安全地移動，然後回線上被動的農， 最後期望根據他們的英雄組合來贏得線上和jungle的勝利。 (註：大意就是幾乎都是開局選完就決定了大半) DOTA in its early incarnations was much like this, with extremely long matches of lane farming before big AoE 5v5 battles. This was changed as players adopted newer playstyles, and particularly with the introduction of the bottle and river runes, which served the same function as the red/blue buff in LoL - spawns that needed to be controlled that gave the player an advantage that allowed them to secure a kill. Great top teams such as kingsurf international (ks.int) were exciting to watch, as they pioneered gank oriented strategies featuring 1 dedicated roamer (earthshaker/lina), constant lane movement and ganking, and even one game with a 3 lane strat where they skipped the tower and farmed the minion line with 2 supports and a tanky dps forcing the enemy to stand useless at tower, struggling to last hit against tower damage and watching his tower take unavoidable damage. DOTA的前身就差不多如此，很長的農，然後才有大規模的5v5範圍戰。 但是當玩家開始適應新的玩法時，以及加入水瓶還有河道符文(差不多就是LOL的紅藍)， 只要控制住就可確保殺人的優勢，整個玩法就開始改變了。 頂級隊伍就是ks.int的比賽看起來就很刺激，因為他們開創了以gank為主的策略， 一個roamer(地震牛/Lina)，持續地在線間遊蕩和gank，到最後甚至有三人行的隊伍， 他們強插入兩塔間，靠著2輔助+1大男DPS強迫對方只能無助地抱塔， 跟塔搶小兵，看著塔被磨掉。 I'm not saying DOTA is a better game, im a LoL player and supporter, and I made the shift because i believed this game had great potential and design. I'm using the DOTA comparision because this is the grandaddy of the genre, and has had time to develop the kind of exciting spectator e-sport i am talking about. also - it had replays : ) This kind of exciting gank oriented early gameplay existed in DOTA but does not currently exist in LoL at a competitive level, and i think it hurts the game from a spectator standpoint. I think there are a few reasons for this - 我並不是在說DOTA比較好，我是個LOL玩家並且是個輔助者，我換過來因為我相信LOL有著 很棒的潛力和設計。我用DOTA來比喻因為他是時代開創者， 而且他有發展出精彩的e-sport，最重要的，它有replays :) 這種刺激的gank主導早期風格在DOTA存在卻沒有在LOL的高層出現，而我認為這傷害了 觀察者的體驗，我認為有以下的理由： 1. flash and ghost summoners flash和ghost 2. no limit on wards bought 買眼的數量沒有限制 3. many champs with jumping escape moves 一堆英雄都可以跳跳逃走 4. significantly lower CC duration at low levels 早期的控場期限很短 5. clairvoyance CV(天眼通) 1. Having flash and ghost available at level 1 makes it very easy to extend without proper vision of a gank and then escape to the safety of your tower. I strongly believe both these skills should be on items that have to be farmed for and therefore not available at level 1. The balancing of such a decision is beyond the scope of this discussion, im just throwing it out there. Additionally, i liked DOTA's approach to a combat cancellable flash item, like mobility boots, in that u couldn't use it for 3 seconds after taking champion based damage, rendering the item far more useful aggressively than defensively. Since I suggest these spells become items, they could potentially be balanced differently - ie, a ghost item that has significantly shorter duration but higher MS burst and shorter cooldown. - ie, - a flash item that has much longer range, but is combat cancellable for 3 seconds and has a slightly shorter cooldown, for more initiates and ganks. 在lv1就有ghost和flash你可以輕易的超線不需要視野然後安全逃回塔下。 我認為這兩個技能應該擺在物品上，你就必須把它農出來並在lv1就不能用了。 至於細節怎麼做不討論，因為這超出現在討論範圍，我只是丟出主意。 另外我喜歡DOTA的方式，像是裡面有個鞋子，當你被英雄打以後3秒內不能使用， 所以你用這物品的時候會比較偏於進攻而不是逃命。 如果照我說的變成物品，那麼平衡起來也就可以用不同標準， 舉例來說ghost可以有比較短的時效，但是更高爆發力和短CD， 而flash有比較長的距離，但是3秒內被打就不能用，CD也就可以比較短，偏向進攻使用。 2. DOTA also placed a limit on the number of wards that could be bought in a certain period of time. I think this is strong for encouraging aggressive exciting gameplay, and makes the risk or purchasing an oracle (gem of truesight) to destroy enemy wards far more rewarding, as you can cripple the enemies map control if you kill enough wards and they are unable to buy more from the shop at that point in time. For instance, the shop in LoL could spawn up to a max of 5 wards at any time, spawing a ward every 2 minutes, or something like this. Once again, this would have to be tested and balanced. But i think limiting the availability of wards and therefore the intelligent placement of them as well as destruction of them an important part of competetive gameplay. 25 gold for a ward kill is insignificant comapred to the control it gives if the enemy runs low on wards. To counter this nerf to wards, i believe there should be a 6th consumable slot impemented for wards/pots only. DOTA有眼的存貨限制，我認為這強烈鼓勵了侵略性的刺激打法，增加風險， 提高買oracle(DOTA=寶石)的利益，因為只要你摧毀足夠的眼就可以抑制對方的地圖控制， 因為他們短時間內會沒法買更多。舉例來說，LOL可以有最大5根眼的庫存， 每2分鐘會補貨一把，或是類似的玩意。同樣地這需要測試和平衡。 但是我認為限制眼的數量會鼓勵高階遊戲有更聰明的插眼/拆眼法。 每打爆一個眼$25相比於失去控制就不顯著了。 而為了彌補這項眼的nerf，我建議應該要有個眼和水這類消費品應該要有個第六格。 3. LoL seems to be coming out with an increasing number of mobility champs with jumping moves. DOTA had only a limited number of these. Whether or not this is a good/bad thing i don't know, but i do know that these champs are much harder to gank early game. I mention this though because if flash and/or ghost become items that have to be bought, power creep will mean that these mobility champs become overpowered, and balance will really need to be looked at. LOL的跳跳太多。DOTA只有很少人有，我不知道這是好是壞，但是我知道可以跳跳的英雄 早期會很難殺。而如果照我說的將flash/ghost物品化，那這些英雄可能又變過強了。 4. People complain about CC in LoL and there is now the tenacity stat to deal with it as well as really short CC duration in LoL by comparison to DOTA. The QQ about CC in LoL makes me laugh a little, when i think back to the DOTA days where priestess could stun you at range for 5 seconds with a skillshot, or dragon knight could single target stun for 3.5 seconds at melee range, or enigma could blackhole suction a whole team in a massive AoE for 4 seconds, or even tide hunters screen sized AoE stun and knockup for 2 seconds. Also, no cleanse, no flash, no tenacity! LoL has very little hard CC by comparison, and this is due to the implementation of ability power and how the same CC spells can become ridiculously bursty. I don't mind the lower durations of CC in LoL, but this, coupled with the aforementioned issues of summoner flash/ghost at level 1 and moblility champions can make fore a very stale and boring early game of last hitting and lane farming. 現在LOL又有韌性，所以跟DOTA完全不能比。 對於LOL控場的QQ讓我笑了，回想起DOTA，像是POTM的爆頭5秒，或是龍騎的3.5單體近昏， 或是黑水的超大範圍吸人4秒，或是海怪的全螢幕範圍2秒昏。 同時，沒有cleanse，沒有flash，也沒有韌性！ 相比之下LOL算殺小(註：他忘了提到BKB的樣子，除非現在沒了)， 這當然也是因為AP實裝，所以法術可以變的有恐怖的爆發力。 我不在意LOL的控場比較短，但是，和上述各項結合起來，一堆lv1跳跳英雄變的超穩， 也就很無聊，然後就開始線上節奏比賽。 5. Clairvoyance is just too strong imo. In particular with 21 utility masteries, it provides great vision of an area including the brush on a pretty short cooldown. No competitive team can go without it. I think clairvoyance could be implemented into a support item, that had a shorter reveal time but could potentially reveal stealthed champs (not wards). Either this, or clairvoyance needs to have a longer base cooldown and not reveal brush unless the point of CV is centered within that brush and only that brush. I much prefer champions that have skills taht can be used to scout areas, making the utility of such spells more important, rather than relying on the crutch of CV. Any of the above changes to CV could make early game LoL far more exciting and interesting. 我覺得CV太猛了，特別是天賦加強後，很短的CD，大範圍，偵測草叢。 現在可以說每個強隊都會來一個CV，我覺得CV應該也被物品化，然後持續變短， 然而可以偵測隱形英雄(不能看眼)，然而不能看草叢，除非你特定指定一個草叢看。 我比較喜歡特定的英雄才有那個技能去偵查，這會讓它變得比較重要，而不是依賴CV。 任何一個上面的CV改變都可以讓早期遊戲更加刺激和有趣。 ------------------------------------------ EDIT - someone in this thread mentioned lane sustainability from lanes such as the euro support + range dps side lane or Jarvan/Irelia grabbing philo stones as well as self healing champs such as vlad especially after he gets the hextech revolver. This is pretty relevant to the stale and boring lane farming gameplay that can exist but this doesn't really impact on the level 1-3 ganks because these champs dont have those sustaining items or skills to do so. I do feel that philos could do with a hp regen nerf though. 有人提到像是EU流的support+range dps或是Jarvan/Irelia買賢者之石， 或是自療英雄如vlad，特別是買了revolver後。 這些都是陳腐以及無聊的農夫風格元兇，然而影響lv1~3的gank不大，因為還太早期了， 然而我確實認為賢者之石的回血需要nerf。 ------------------------------------------ TLDR - i think LoL as an e-sport from a spectator viewpoint is somewhat boring and passive in the early game, and needs some changes to make the killl counts higher and more interesting. Late game teams dancing around baron hiding in brush CVing each other and killing each others wards is ok, this is the strategy of the game at that point, but the early game could be far more action packed at a competitive level. 我只認為以e-sport旁觀者來看早期很無聊，需要更多樂趣。 而在後期的baron爭奪戰還有CV偷窺還有插拆眼都是OK的， 但是早期在高階等級確實需要一些緊湊的動作交流。 ============================================================================== 下面又有更多藍帖回應，然後有Riot在裡面，太多了就節錄 ============================================================================== riot: We have been discussing this internally and have identified similar root problems. The possible solutions however are much more difficult to tease out because there are many systems in play that make the game the way it is in competitive play. Every change has a huge consequence. 我們內部有討論，並且確認了類似的根本問題。 但是可行解卻很困難，因為牽涉太多。 For example, nerfing Clairvoyance increases the power of the jungler and increases uncertainty for the laners (due to less map awareness). Would this lead to more kills or would it make the laners play even more passive when they are uncertain of the jungler's position? 像是nerf CV將會強化jungler並且增加線上英雄的不確定性。 而這會造成更多的殺人數，或是只是讓他們變得更龜？(因為他們不確定附近有沒有人) In my opinion, the core problems are the junglers and roamers that add uncertainty to the map. If you look at duo lane play in competitive play, they are often very aggressive and if left alone 2v2 have tons of action, back and forth, pushing back to base and killing. Even solo lanes can have a lot of action dependent on the matchup, though it is much less likely for kills to happen compared to a duo lane. The second though any lane senses the presence of the jungler/incoming ganker (especially with the Red Lizard buff), they are forced to disengage and play passively. This sense of constant paranoia plagues high level play and creates a lot of passivity. This is the exact same effect stealthers like Evelynn and global champions like TF have on the map as well. 在我的意見，核心問題是jungler和roamer造成的地圖不確定性。 如果你觀察高階2v2線，你會看到他們都非常有侵略性，1v1也可能但比較少。 第二個是如果線上英雄察覺到附近有jungler(特別還有紅的話)那麼他們就會龜， 而這種疑心造成了被動，同樣地，像是Eve隱形或是TF ult也是元兇。 When you are certain of your local space and can predict and calculate how your actions will play out, you are much more likely to commit to fights/exchanges and do crazy stuff to push your advantage when possible. The second that certainty is gone, you can no longer play aggressively without being punished in high tier play. 當你確定安全了自然就會打猛推進優勢，但當不確定時，在高階就很難打猛卻不被逞罰。 I also believe the crazy amounts of regen and sustain that exists in our game trumps all forms of attrition in lane making exchanges not as interesting or punshing/rewarding. This is another key. 我也同意回復和持續力的部分是另外一個造成被動的重點。 TL;DR Uncertainty (caused primarily by junglers but also by roamers and globals) and sustainability seem to me like root problems of why competitive play is so passive in the early game. We are by no means looking to remove jungling or roaming from the game, but reducing the necessity of the jungler and lowering sustainability could be steps in the right direction. 我認為不確定性和持續力就是早期被動玩法的根本問題。 這並不代表我們正想辦法移除jungling或roaming， 但是降低jungler的需求和降低持續力將會是正確的方向。 ============================================================================== Originally Posted by L0CUST there are a dozen reasons why the game is so passive.. "uncertainty" is barely a reason.. L0CUST: 讓遊戲變的被動有一堆理由，但是不確定性很難說是個理由... riot: Sure, I agree with you, but which ones can we actually solve while not completely shaking up LoL's fundamental gameplay that makes LoL a game we like to play? 當然我同意，但是我們找不到一個不動搖根本的方式。 You could add denying and better lane control so that it is easier to zone opponents. This is something we would never pursue for many reasons namely that denying is not intuitive and zoning is extremely unfun for the opposing player. 我們可以增加TK，這樣你可以更好搞對面。 但是我們絕不會這麼做，有很多原因，像是不直觀和對對手來說不好玩。 You could make CC stronger and/or lower early game defensive possibilities (items, runes, masteries) so it is easier to outright kill targets with less firepower. These would also fundamentally change how LoL plays and would make it much more akin to DotA and HoN where heroes die in single CCs and early game nuke damage. But is this fun for the average player and specifically for the League of Legends playerbase? I would venture on to say no. 我們也可以提高控場或是降低早期逃跑力，但是這會改變LOL讓它變的像DOTA和HON， 你可能被一個控場然後就被秒了。這可能不利於大眾玩家和喜歡LOL的支持者。 We could remove Flash, but that has its own can of worms both in terms of removing potential offensive uses of Flash and in terms of balance concerns for champions who innately have a blink. 我們可以移掉flash，但這是個馬蜂窩，因為可能會同時失去進攻式使用， 或是對已經有類似技能的英雄不平衡。 I would like to hear your thoughts on what other possible solutions we could implement that would solve this problem more cleanly. I'm all open ears. 我很樂意聽意見，但是最好是可以實施，並且清楚解決問題的。 ============================================================================== L0CUST: DOTA和HON裡面物品很貴，殺人只有200G，而且小兵可以到45G，然而他們還是會想殺人。 同樣的掛掉也不是太大的事，因為你可以農回來，或是找些人殺，還是能贏。 (相比之下LOL早期掛掉是很大條的事) 而回復在DOTA和HON很重要，也很貴，所以你早期殺了人，只是讓你變主動一點，而不會 真正對你的傷害或是生存力造成太大的影響，還是有機會挽回。 早期雖然你丟了一條線，你還是可以四處走走，殺殺人什麼的，但是在LOL不是這樣。 因為塔打的很大力(所以很難dive)，而且LOL的屬性成長太強，lv3只能抓lv6的癢， 如果他還特別在行殺人或坦，那麼找他麻煩也變得很困難。 所以LOL裡面等級超重要，持續力也就很重要，當然敵人也在這麼做，一線掉了就很大條。 所以大家都在打龜，在高階遊戲，除非你真正很領先，不然你永遠不該開戰， 所以不管優劣勢方，總之就是農農農。 你說你不想要2人gank就穩殺，你不想讓人死的不明不白，你也不想要超級地圖兵器， 每樣東西都死的很快，你也不想要TK，或是死在塔前，因為傷害遊戲體驗... 所以那我應該什麼時候打猛？ 你的"我想讓早期遊戲變的主動"這個議題相較之下看起來就是妄想。 riot: Thanks for this post. I will have to dwell on it a bit. I do agree, if kills are less game-swinging then they can happen more frequently without as much snowball. 我同意如果殺戮比較不影響整體，不這麼滾雪球，那麼就會比較常發生。 I also agree that level advantages are too strong, happen too often, get too large, and are generally unfun. This is a tough thing to change at this point though without heavily impacting the game in other ways. 我也同意等級優勢太強，太常發生，變太大，也通常不好玩。 現階段要在不劇烈影響遊戲的情況下很難改變。 I think DotA's biggest strength is that mana is extremely limited and important in those games and having a full mana pool means you can kill someone if you can execute your combo. Because Mana is a non-issue in our game but cooldowns are still relatively short to support fun spammy gameplay, our spells cannot be as high impact (we probably don't want them to be). LOL裡面mana比較不重要，然而CD還是挺短，所以你可以按按按很好玩， 然而我們不想要讓法術變太強。 ============================================================================== riot: Great post. This is something we've been discussing a lot internally. Most sub-1600 games have a much better amount of action, but in our highest level play, the game crawls to a standstill with very few exciting moments for either spectators or players. 統整一下，我們內部都有在一直討論，在1600以下遊戲都有很多動作， 但是更高等級的遊戲，就太龜了。 There's a ton of moving parts here, which makes fixing this much more difficult; 會動到很多部分，所以修起來很困難 * Roamers and junglers create uncertainty, making lanes less likely to take risks. 因為有roamer和jungler創造不確定性，所以線上會打龜不冒風險。 * Regen is cheap (and you get a decent amount free) and is too effective at negating harass. 回復很便宜，而且反制騷擾很有效。 * Champions get too many stats out of levels (as L0CUST mentions). 等級太重要。 * Flashes and blinks allow more safety, robbing kills when lanes can secure them. flash類的太安全，當控制住局面時也太殺。 * Healing is too good, still, contributing additionally to harassing not meaning much. 治療太棒，也讓騷擾變的沒意義。 * CV and wards, later in the game, lessen mistakes by providing a lot of information, and this itself has a lot of consequences if changed. CV和眼，讓犯錯變少。 We're going to tackle most of these as soon as we can get something we feel deals with the problem effectively. I think sending people back to base needs to be more acceptable in our game, and levels need to mean less - being behind does seal your fate for ever fighting the lane again. Jungling, stealth (in mid and low) and globals all need to stop just adding to this equation. 我們會在適當時機改，我覺得讓人回家應該變得更能接受，升級較少意義， 還有jungle/隱形/global都需要被制止。 ============================================================================== 下面比較零碎 ============================================================================== You misunderstand completely. I didn't say "remove laning" or "make it shorter," i said we should make laning exciting. Good ganks and lane kills -do- happen in DotA/HoN - and some of the methods used there make sense, such as less access to sustainability. We won't be adding 5+ second stuns that result in death if initiated on, but we can easily add harass/counter harass gameplay. 我並沒有說要移掉撐線或是讓它變短，我說應該讓它變刺激。 借鏡DOTA/HON的方法像是比較少的持續力，我們不會給個5+秒的昏， 但是會加入更容易的騷擾/反騷擾的遊戲方式。 The core problem is that junglers are currently not taking a risk by ganking, it is expected and easy for them to do. There is a huge difference of decision making between your mid lane solo going MIA to attempt a gank losing out on tons of experience and gold and the jungler being MIA the entire laning phase but still reaping the benefits of jungle gold, experience, map coverage, and rune buffs. As the opposing player, it is okay for a lane to go MIA because the obvious good play is to avoid his gank thereby wasting the ganker's time which increases the advantage for a different lane. But in the case of the jungler, you are not wasting his time at all because there is downtime between the jungler's rotation where the obvious good choice for him is to gank. 核心問題是jungler在gank的時候不冒風險，而且容易。 你在線上擔心時他們仍然可以去打野，有錢有經驗有buff有地圖控制，他們總是MIA。 線上有人MIA就很容易被察覺而且會喪失賺錢和經驗的時間。 對jungler來說他們可以在等重生時盡量跑去gank，這對他來說是個完美的選擇。 TL;DR League of Legends is a series of decision points where you are gauging whether a situation is good or bad for you to be in. The jungler being near makes that an easy decision (you know it's "bad") which forces people to play passively in order to not make an obvious mistake. Even-numbered ("fair") engagements are much harder to gauge which allows players to take risks and ultimately make mistakes by inaccurately calculating the success of a move and/or not executing as planned (which often results in a death). The jungler is a 100% uptime MIA call that is taking little to no risk in attempting to gank lanes which in general causes predictable and uninteresting (passive) play. LOL是一系列的決策，你必須衡量情況是好是壞，是否要去做。 如果有jungler在附近，你當然知道情況不好，所以會打龜，不要犯錯。 如果你衡量情況風險是"中等"，那麼你可能就會冒險，然後成功或是失敗。 反正jungler就是破壞決策，讓大家都偏向打龜。 This is actually something we have been considering. We are also considering lowering jungle experience but increasing gold rewards. 我們考慮降低jungle經驗，但是提高金錢。 Junglers become underleveled because they run out of things to kill. If the jungle had basically infinite respawns we make the jungler choose between ganking and possibly being underleved/underfarmed if he fails or he can sit in the jungle to make sure he doesn't fall behind. Right now a good jungler can gank bottom lane when he's level 4 with double buffs and the duo lane is only level 3 as part of his normal rotation. In my opinion that is completely unfair. 如果jungle有無限制重生，那麼就可以逼他做決策，要江狗還是冒著落後危險去gank， 現階段來講jungler就是過太爽。 We have many top tier (some of us ex-competitive) League of Legends players that now work at Riot. To name some, Classick, me (I play on the account Statikk, not RiotStatikk), TreeEskimo, Milkcow45 -- we are all 2k+ Solo Queue ranked and many of us have played in some degree in competitive League of Legends tournaments. We also closely follow the competitive scene watching all of the games being played. 我們有很多睪丸，像是我(帳號是Statikk喔)，都是2k+的solo queue ranked也有比賽。 With or without the jungler, much of our game is decided by picks. For example, I can say the team that picks Nunu in a competitive game has an innate advantage in the jungle. It is the fate of such a strategy game. If there are champions who just have way too much "innate advantage," I would deem these champions "OP" and we would need to look at them to better balance them and fix their issues. Yes, I believe Vlad and Nunu (among others) are OP. 有沒有jungler，遊戲通常在選英雄的時候就決定了。 舉例來說比賽看到有隊伍挑了NUNU，那就是在jungle有天生優勢，這是策略遊戲的命運。 如果有英雄是像這種有太大天生優勢，我就會說這英雄OP，然後打他的臉， 是的我認為NUNU和Vlad就OP。 Your post is definitely interesting. I don't like the idea of a jungler PvE'ing for 10 minutes either but it was an idea thrown on the table. When we designed champions, we really never made them to be jungle only champions as you seem to view them as (perhaps Warwick but the ironic thing is that Lanewick is actually very powerful). For example, Trundle we knew could jungle but we also thought he was a decent laner. Power creep in the lanes has definitely overshadowed champions like him though disallowing them from playing in the lane. If we reduce the necessity of the jungle, we will definitely have to take a look at junglers who are poor laners and fix that up. The ones that come to mind are definitely Trundle and Udyr. But ultimately, I feel that making the jungler a non-necessity is good for our game in general. 我不喜歡jungler就在那邊單機10分鐘的主意，但是這已經是被擺在桌上的主意。 我們射記時不會把它光限制成就是要去jungle(像是ww，撐線ww也很有威力滴)。 又像川島，大家都知道jungle很強，但是他撐線也不錯，但是因為他jungle太亮眼， 所以就不被允許在線上玩。 如果我們降低jungler的需要，那麼我們會去觀察那些線上較弱的jungler並補償他們， 像是川島和Udyr就是。但是總之我們覺得讓jungler變的非必要是個好主意。 --

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