原文网址 http://clgaming.net/redtracker/topic/5805/?u=137&p=1 主要讨论目前top elo和比赛的情况(就是有点无聊的风格) 这应该看的出将可能会是未来的改版方向(即将到来的贤者石/TF ult/CV nerf) ParoX: Keep in mind i'm no high elo player (currently 1700s and have been up to 1860), but I have had a history of playing competitive DOTA in inhouse leagues and cash prize tournies, and I'm an avid fan of the observer aspect of high level play. 先说我并不是高elo的玩家(目前1700最高曾到1860)， 然而我曾经在DOTA(注：就是Dota Allstar)一些很有竞争力的内战和有奖金的比赛参赛， 而且我非常喜欢看一些高等级的游戏。 One thing that occured to me from watching these qualifiers was that as an E-sport, the game is currently lacking somewhat in the early game action. The best moments for me were some of the early first bloods such as TSM vs EG where Regi did a ballsy initiate on Dan Dinh maokai jungle at blue before the minions had even spawned, with his team following up with CC and AoE for an amazing first blood. 从E-sport的角度来看，LOL欠缺的就是早期的一些动作(action)， 我看过最好的就像是在TSM vs EG里面Regi对Dan Dinh的猫凯jungle蓝点做出大胆的先发， 那时候甚至连小兵都还没出生，然後他的队伍紧接着一堆控场和范围技拿到了FB。 These moments were sadly lacking for alot of the games, which were from a spectator viewpoint somewhat boring and passive, with most teams moving around safely in the jungle at level 1 before returning to lanes and farming passively and hoping that they could win their lanes and jungle based on the draft. 但是这种情况对於许多游戏来说都没有，所以从观战角度就会觉得无聊和被动， 所有队伍都在lv1时jungle区安全地移动，然後回线上被动的农， 最後期望根据他们的英雄组合来赢得线上和jungle的胜利。 (注：大意就是几乎都是开局选完就决定了大半) DOTA in its early incarnations was much like this, with extremely long matches of lane farming before big AoE 5v5 battles. This was changed as players adopted newer playstyles, and particularly with the introduction of the bottle and river runes, which served the same function as the red/blue buff in LoL - spawns that needed to be controlled that gave the player an advantage that allowed them to secure a kill. Great top teams such as kingsurf international (ks.int) were exciting to watch, as they pioneered gank oriented strategies featuring 1 dedicated roamer (earthshaker/lina), constant lane movement and ganking, and even one game with a 3 lane strat where they skipped the tower and farmed the minion line with 2 supports and a tanky dps forcing the enemy to stand useless at tower, struggling to last hit against tower damage and watching his tower take unavoidable damage. DOTA的前身就差不多如此，很长的农，然後才有大规模的5v5范围战。 但是当玩家开始适应新的玩法时，以及加入水瓶还有河道符文(差不多就是LOL的红蓝)， 只要控制住就可确保杀人的优势，整个玩法就开始改变了。 顶级队伍就是ks.int的比赛看起来就很刺激，因为他们开创了以gank为主的策略， 一个roamer(地震牛/Lina)，持续地在线间游荡和gank，到最後甚至有三人行的队伍， 他们强插入两塔间，靠着2辅助+1大男DPS强迫对方只能无助地抱塔， 跟塔抢小兵，看着塔被磨掉。 I'm not saying DOTA is a better game, im a LoL player and supporter, and I made the shift because i believed this game had great potential and design. I'm using the DOTA comparision because this is the grandaddy of the genre, and has had time to develop the kind of exciting spectator e-sport i am talking about. also - it had replays : ) This kind of exciting gank oriented early gameplay existed in DOTA but does not currently exist in LoL at a competitive level, and i think it hurts the game from a spectator standpoint. I think there are a few reasons for this - 我并不是在说DOTA比较好，我是个LOL玩家并且是个辅助者，我换过来因为我相信LOL有着 很棒的潜力和设计。我用DOTA来比喻因为他是时代开创者， 而且他有发展出精彩的e-sport，最重要的，它有replays :) 这种刺激的gank主导早期风格在DOTA存在却没有在LOL的高层出现，而我认为这伤害了 观察者的体验，我认为有以下的理由： 1. flash and ghost summoners flash和ghost 2. no limit on wards bought 买眼的数量没有限制 3. many champs with jumping escape moves 一堆英雄都可以跳跳逃走 4. significantly lower CC duration at low levels 早期的控场期限很短 5. clairvoyance CV(天眼通) 1. Having flash and ghost available at level 1 makes it very easy to extend without proper vision of a gank and then escape to the safety of your tower. I strongly believe both these skills should be on items that have to be farmed for and therefore not available at level 1. The balancing of such a decision is beyond the scope of this discussion, im just throwing it out there. Additionally, i liked DOTA's approach to a combat cancellable flash item, like mobility boots, in that u couldn't use it for 3 seconds after taking champion based damage, rendering the item far more useful aggressively than defensively. Since I suggest these spells become items, they could potentially be balanced differently - ie, a ghost item that has significantly shorter duration but higher MS burst and shorter cooldown. - ie, - a flash item that has much longer range, but is combat cancellable for 3 seconds and has a slightly shorter cooldown, for more initiates and ganks. 在lv1就有ghost和flash你可以轻易的超线不需要视野然後安全逃回塔下。 我认为这两个技能应该摆在物品上，你就必须把它农出来并在lv1就不能用了。 至於细节怎麽做不讨论，因为这超出现在讨论范围，我只是丢出主意。 另外我喜欢DOTA的方式，像是里面有个鞋子，当你被英雄打以後3秒内不能使用， 所以你用这物品的时候会比较偏於进攻而不是逃命。 如果照我说的变成物品，那麽平衡起来也就可以用不同标准， 举例来说ghost可以有比较短的时效，但是更高爆发力和短CD， 而flash有比较长的距离，但是3秒内被打就不能用，CD也就可以比较短，偏向进攻使用。 2. DOTA also placed a limit on the number of wards that could be bought in a certain period of time. I think this is strong for encouraging aggressive exciting gameplay, and makes the risk or purchasing an oracle (gem of truesight) to destroy enemy wards far more rewarding, as you can cripple the enemies map control if you kill enough wards and they are unable to buy more from the shop at that point in time. For instance, the shop in LoL could spawn up to a max of 5 wards at any time, spawing a ward every 2 minutes, or something like this. Once again, this would have to be tested and balanced. But i think limiting the availability of wards and therefore the intelligent placement of them as well as destruction of them an important part of competetive gameplay. 25 gold for a ward kill is insignificant comapred to the control it gives if the enemy runs low on wards. To counter this nerf to wards, i believe there should be a 6th consumable slot impemented for wards/pots only. DOTA有眼的存货限制，我认为这强烈鼓励了侵略性的刺激打法，增加风险， 提高买oracle(DOTA=宝石)的利益，因为只要你摧毁足够的眼就可以抑制对方的地图控制， 因为他们短时间内会没法买更多。举例来说，LOL可以有最大5根眼的库存， 每2分钟会补货一把，或是类似的玩意。同样地这需要测试和平衡。 但是我认为限制眼的数量会鼓励高阶游戏有更聪明的插眼/拆眼法。 每打爆一个眼$25相比於失去控制就不显着了。 而为了弥补这项眼的nerf，我建议应该要有个眼和水这类消费品应该要有个第六格。 3. LoL seems to be coming out with an increasing number of mobility champs with jumping moves. DOTA had only a limited number of these. Whether or not this is a good/bad thing i don't know, but i do know that these champs are much harder to gank early game. I mention this though because if flash and/or ghost become items that have to be bought, power creep will mean that these mobility champs become overpowered, and balance will really need to be looked at. LOL的跳跳太多。DOTA只有很少人有，我不知道这是好是坏，但是我知道可以跳跳的英雄 早期会很难杀。而如果照我说的将flash/ghost物品化，那这些英雄可能又变过强了。 4. People complain about CC in LoL and there is now the tenacity stat to deal with it as well as really short CC duration in LoL by comparison to DOTA. The QQ about CC in LoL makes me laugh a little, when i think back to the DOTA days where priestess could stun you at range for 5 seconds with a skillshot, or dragon knight could single target stun for 3.5 seconds at melee range, or enigma could blackhole suction a whole team in a massive AoE for 4 seconds, or even tide hunters screen sized AoE stun and knockup for 2 seconds. Also, no cleanse, no flash, no tenacity! LoL has very little hard CC by comparison, and this is due to the implementation of ability power and how the same CC spells can become ridiculously bursty. I don't mind the lower durations of CC in LoL, but this, coupled with the aforementioned issues of summoner flash/ghost at level 1 and moblility champions can make fore a very stale and boring early game of last hitting and lane farming. 现在LOL又有韧性，所以跟DOTA完全不能比。 对於LOL控场的QQ让我笑了，回想起DOTA，像是POTM的爆头5秒，或是龙骑的3.5单体近昏， 或是黑水的超大范围吸人4秒，或是海怪的全萤幕范围2秒昏。 同时，没有cleanse，没有flash，也没有韧性！ 相比之下LOL算杀小(注：他忘了提到BKB的样子，除非现在没了)， 这当然也是因为AP实装，所以法术可以变的有恐怖的爆发力。 我不在意LOL的控场比较短，但是，和上述各项结合起来，一堆lv1跳跳英雄变的超稳， 也就很无聊，然後就开始线上节奏比赛。 5. Clairvoyance is just too strong imo. In particular with 21 utility masteries, it provides great vision of an area including the brush on a pretty short cooldown. No competitive team can go without it. I think clairvoyance could be implemented into a support item, that had a shorter reveal time but could potentially reveal stealthed champs (not wards). Either this, or clairvoyance needs to have a longer base cooldown and not reveal brush unless the point of CV is centered within that brush and only that brush. I much prefer champions that have skills taht can be used to scout areas, making the utility of such spells more important, rather than relying on the crutch of CV. Any of the above changes to CV could make early game LoL far more exciting and interesting. 我觉得CV太猛了，特别是天赋加强後，很短的CD，大范围，侦测草丛。 现在可以说每个强队都会来一个CV，我觉得CV应该也被物品化，然後持续变短， 然而可以侦测隐形英雄(不能看眼)，然而不能看草丛，除非你特定指定一个草丛看。 我比较喜欢特定的英雄才有那个技能去侦查，这会让它变得比较重要，而不是依赖CV。 任何一个上面的CV改变都可以让早期游戏更加刺激和有趣。 ------------------------------------------ EDIT - someone in this thread mentioned lane sustainability from lanes such as the euro support + range dps side lane or Jarvan/Irelia grabbing philo stones as well as self healing champs such as vlad especially after he gets the hextech revolver. This is pretty relevant to the stale and boring lane farming gameplay that can exist but this doesn't really impact on the level 1-3 ganks because these champs dont have those sustaining items or skills to do so. I do feel that philos could do with a hp regen nerf though. 有人提到像是EU流的support+range dps或是Jarvan/Irelia买贤者之石， 或是自疗英雄如vlad，特别是买了revolver後。 这些都是陈腐以及无聊的农夫风格元凶，然而影响lv1~3的gank不大，因为还太早期了， 然而我确实认为贤者之石的回血需要nerf。 ------------------------------------------ TLDR - i think LoL as an e-sport from a spectator viewpoint is somewhat boring and passive in the early game, and needs some changes to make the killl counts higher and more interesting. Late game teams dancing around baron hiding in brush CVing each other and killing each others wards is ok, this is the strategy of the game at that point, but the early game could be far more action packed at a competitive level. 我只认为以e-sport旁观者来看早期很无聊，需要更多乐趣。 而在後期的baron争夺战还有CV偷窥还有插拆眼都是OK的， 但是早期在高阶等级确实需要一些紧凑的动作交流。 ============================================================================== 下面又有更多蓝帖回应，然後有Riot在里面，太多了就节录 ============================================================================== riot: We have been discussing this internally and have identified similar root problems. The possible solutions however are much more difficult to tease out because there are many systems in play that make the game the way it is in competitive play. Every change has a huge consequence. 我们内部有讨论，并且确认了类似的根本问题。 但是可行解却很困难，因为牵涉太多。 For example, nerfing Clairvoyance increases the power of the jungler and increases uncertainty for the laners (due to less map awareness). Would this lead to more kills or would it make the laners play even more passive when they are uncertain of the jungler's position? 像是nerf CV将会强化jungler并且增加线上英雄的不确定性。 而这会造成更多的杀人数，或是只是让他们变得更龟？(因为他们不确定附近有没有人) In my opinion, the core problems are the junglers and roamers that add uncertainty to the map. If you look at duo lane play in competitive play, they are often very aggressive and if left alone 2v2 have tons of action, back and forth, pushing back to base and killing. Even solo lanes can have a lot of action dependent on the matchup, though it is much less likely for kills to happen compared to a duo lane. The second though any lane senses the presence of the jungler/incoming ganker (especially with the Red Lizard buff), they are forced to disengage and play passively. This sense of constant paranoia plagues high level play and creates a lot of passivity. This is the exact same effect stealthers like Evelynn and global champions like TF have on the map as well. 在我的意见，核心问题是jungler和roamer造成的地图不确定性。 如果你观察高阶2v2线，你会看到他们都非常有侵略性，1v1也可能但比较少。 第二个是如果线上英雄察觉到附近有jungler(特别还有红的话)那麽他们就会龟， 而这种疑心造成了被动，同样地，像是Eve隐形或是TF ult也是元凶。 When you are certain of your local space and can predict and calculate how your actions will play out, you are much more likely to commit to fights/exchanges and do crazy stuff to push your advantage when possible. The second that certainty is gone, you can no longer play aggressively without being punished in high tier play. 当你确定安全了自然就会打猛推进优势，但当不确定时，在高阶就很难打猛却不被逞罚。 I also believe the crazy amounts of regen and sustain that exists in our game trumps all forms of attrition in lane making exchanges not as interesting or punshing/rewarding. This is another key. 我也同意回复和持续力的部分是另外一个造成被动的重点。 TL;DR Uncertainty (caused primarily by junglers but also by roamers and globals) and sustainability seem to me like root problems of why competitive play is so passive in the early game. We are by no means looking to remove jungling or roaming from the game, but reducing the necessity of the jungler and lowering sustainability could be steps in the right direction. 我认为不确定性和持续力就是早期被动玩法的根本问题。 这并不代表我们正想办法移除jungling或roaming， 但是降低jungler的需求和降低持续力将会是正确的方向。 ============================================================================== Originally Posted by L0CUST there are a dozen reasons why the game is so passive.. "uncertainty" is barely a reason.. L0CUST: 让游戏变的被动有一堆理由，但是不确定性很难说是个理由... riot: Sure, I agree with you, but which ones can we actually solve while not completely shaking up LoL's fundamental gameplay that makes LoL a game we like to play? 当然我同意，但是我们找不到一个不动摇根本的方式。 You could add denying and better lane control so that it is easier to zone opponents. This is something we would never pursue for many reasons namely that denying is not intuitive and zoning is extremely unfun for the opposing player. 我们可以增加TK，这样你可以更好搞对面。 但是我们绝不会这麽做，有很多原因，像是不直观和对对手来说不好玩。 You could make CC stronger and/or lower early game defensive possibilities (items, runes, masteries) so it is easier to outright kill targets with less firepower. These would also fundamentally change how LoL plays and would make it much more akin to DotA and HoN where heroes die in single CCs and early game nuke damage. But is this fun for the average player and specifically for the League of Legends playerbase? I would venture on to say no. 我们也可以提高控场或是降低早期逃跑力，但是这会改变LOL让它变的像DOTA和HON， 你可能被一个控场然後就被秒了。这可能不利於大众玩家和喜欢LOL的支持者。 We could remove Flash, but that has its own can of worms both in terms of removing potential offensive uses of Flash and in terms of balance concerns for champions who innately have a blink. 我们可以移掉flash，但这是个马蜂窝，因为可能会同时失去进攻式使用， 或是对已经有类似技能的英雄不平衡。 I would like to hear your thoughts on what other possible solutions we could implement that would solve this problem more cleanly. I'm all open ears. 我很乐意听意见，但是最好是可以实施，并且清楚解决问题的。 ============================================================================== L0CUST: DOTA和HON里面物品很贵，杀人只有200G，而且小兵可以到45G，然而他们还是会想杀人。 同样的挂掉也不是太大的事，因为你可以农回来，或是找些人杀，还是能赢。 (相比之下LOL早期挂掉是很大条的事) 而回复在DOTA和HON很重要，也很贵，所以你早期杀了人，只是让你变主动一点，而不会 真正对你的伤害或是生存力造成太大的影响，还是有机会挽回。 早期虽然你丢了一条线，你还是可以四处走走，杀杀人什麽的，但是在LOL不是这样。 因为塔打的很大力(所以很难dive)，而且LOL的属性成长太强，lv3只能抓lv6的痒， 如果他还特别在行杀人或坦，那麽找他麻烦也变得很困难。 所以LOL里面等级超重要，持续力也就很重要，当然敌人也在这麽做，一线掉了就很大条。 所以大家都在打龟，在高阶游戏，除非你真正很领先，不然你永远不该开战， 所以不管优劣势方，总之就是农农农。 你说你不想要2人gank就稳杀，你不想让人死的不明不白，你也不想要超级地图兵器， 每样东西都死的很快，你也不想要TK，或是死在塔前，因为伤害游戏体验... 所以那我应该什麽时候打猛？ 你的"我想让早期游戏变的主动"这个议题相较之下看起来就是妄想。 riot: Thanks for this post. I will have to dwell on it a bit. I do agree, if kills are less game-swinging then they can happen more frequently without as much snowball. 我同意如果杀戮比较不影响整体，不这麽滚雪球，那麽就会比较常发生。 I also agree that level advantages are too strong, happen too often, get too large, and are generally unfun. This is a tough thing to change at this point though without heavily impacting the game in other ways. 我也同意等级优势太强，太常发生，变太大，也通常不好玩。 现阶段要在不剧烈影响游戏的情况下很难改变。 I think DotA's biggest strength is that mana is extremely limited and important in those games and having a full mana pool means you can kill someone if you can execute your combo. Because Mana is a non-issue in our game but cooldowns are still relatively short to support fun spammy gameplay, our spells cannot be as high impact (we probably don't want them to be). LOL里面mana比较不重要，然而CD还是挺短，所以你可以按按按很好玩， 然而我们不想要让法术变太强。 ============================================================================== riot: Great post. This is something we've been discussing a lot internally. Most sub-1600 games have a much better amount of action, but in our highest level play, the game crawls to a standstill with very few exciting moments for either spectators or players. 统整一下，我们内部都有在一直讨论，在1600以下游戏都有很多动作， 但是更高等级的游戏，就太龟了。 There's a ton of moving parts here, which makes fixing this much more difficult; 会动到很多部分，所以修起来很困难 * Roamers and junglers create uncertainty, making lanes less likely to take risks. 因为有roamer和jungler创造不确定性，所以线上会打龟不冒风险。 * Regen is cheap (and you get a decent amount free) and is too effective at negating harass. 回复很便宜，而且反制骚扰很有效。 * Champions get too many stats out of levels (as L0CUST mentions). 等级太重要。 * Flashes and blinks allow more safety, robbing kills when lanes can secure them. flash类的太安全，当控制住局面时也太杀。 * Healing is too good, still, contributing additionally to harassing not meaning much. 治疗太棒，也让骚扰变的没意义。 * CV and wards, later in the game, lessen mistakes by providing a lot of information, and this itself has a lot of consequences if changed. CV和眼，让犯错变少。 We're going to tackle most of these as soon as we can get something we feel deals with the problem effectively. I think sending people back to base needs to be more acceptable in our game, and levels need to mean less - being behind does seal your fate for ever fighting the lane again. Jungling, stealth (in mid and low) and globals all need to stop just adding to this equation. 我们会在适当时机改，我觉得让人回家应该变得更能接受，升级较少意义， 还有jungle/隐形/global都需要被制止。 ============================================================================== 下面比较零碎 ============================================================================== You misunderstand completely. I didn't say "remove laning" or "make it shorter," i said we should make laning exciting. Good ganks and lane kills -do- happen in DotA/HoN - and some of the methods used there make sense, such as less access to sustainability. We won't be adding 5+ second stuns that result in death if initiated on, but we can easily add harass/counter harass gameplay. 我并没有说要移掉撑线或是让它变短，我说应该让它变刺激。 借镜DOTA/HON的方法像是比较少的持续力，我们不会给个5+秒的昏， 但是会加入更容易的骚扰/反骚扰的游戏方式。 The core problem is that junglers are currently not taking a risk by ganking, it is expected and easy for them to do. There is a huge difference of decision making between your mid lane solo going MIA to attempt a gank losing out on tons of experience and gold and the jungler being MIA the entire laning phase but still reaping the benefits of jungle gold, experience, map coverage, and rune buffs. As the opposing player, it is okay for a lane to go MIA because the obvious good play is to avoid his gank thereby wasting the ganker's time which increases the advantage for a different lane. But in the case of the jungler, you are not wasting his time at all because there is downtime between the jungler's rotation where the obvious good choice for him is to gank. 核心问题是jungler在gank的时候不冒风险，而且容易。 你在线上担心时他们仍然可以去打野，有钱有经验有buff有地图控制，他们总是MIA。 线上有人MIA就很容易被察觉而且会丧失赚钱和经验的时间。 对jungler来说他们可以在等重生时尽量跑去gank，这对他来说是个完美的选择。 TL;DR League of Legends is a series of decision points where you are gauging whether a situation is good or bad for you to be in. The jungler being near makes that an easy decision (you know it's "bad") which forces people to play passively in order to not make an obvious mistake. Even-numbered ("fair") engagements are much harder to gauge which allows players to take risks and ultimately make mistakes by inaccurately calculating the success of a move and/or not executing as planned (which often results in a death). The jungler is a 100% uptime MIA call that is taking little to no risk in attempting to gank lanes which in general causes predictable and uninteresting (passive) play. LOL是一系列的决策，你必须衡量情况是好是坏，是否要去做。 如果有jungler在附近，你当然知道情况不好，所以会打龟，不要犯错。 如果你衡量情况风险是"中等"，那麽你可能就会冒险，然後成功或是失败。 反正jungler就是破坏决策，让大家都偏向打龟。 This is actually something we have been considering. We are also considering lowering jungle experience but increasing gold rewards. 我们考虑降低jungle经验，但是提高金钱。 Junglers become underleveled because they run out of things to kill. If the jungle had basically infinite respawns we make the jungler choose between ganking and possibly being underleved/underfarmed if he fails or he can sit in the jungle to make sure he doesn't fall behind. Right now a good jungler can gank bottom lane when he's level 4 with double buffs and the duo lane is only level 3 as part of his normal rotation. In my opinion that is completely unfair. 如果jungle有无限制重生，那麽就可以逼他做决策，要江狗还是冒着落後危险去gank， 现阶段来讲jungler就是过太爽。 We have many top tier (some of us ex-competitive) League of Legends players that now work at Riot. To name some, Classick, me (I play on the account Statikk, not RiotStatikk), TreeEskimo, Milkcow45 -- we are all 2k+ Solo Queue ranked and many of us have played in some degree in competitive League of Legends tournaments. We also closely follow the competitive scene watching all of the games being played. 我们有很多睾丸，像是我(帐号是Statikk喔)，都是2k+的solo queue ranked也有比赛。 With or without the jungler, much of our game is decided by picks. For example, I can say the team that picks Nunu in a competitive game has an innate advantage in the jungle. It is the fate of such a strategy game. If there are champions who just have way too much "innate advantage," I would deem these champions "OP" and we would need to look at them to better balance them and fix their issues. Yes, I believe Vlad and Nunu (among others) are OP. 有没有jungler，游戏通常在选英雄的时候就决定了。 举例来说比赛看到有队伍挑了NUNU，那就是在jungle有天生优势，这是策略游戏的命运。 如果有英雄是像这种有太大天生优势，我就会说这英雄OP，然後打他的脸， 是的我认为NUNU和Vlad就OP。 Your post is definitely interesting. I don't like the idea of a jungler PvE'ing for 10 minutes either but it was an idea thrown on the table. When we designed champions, we really never made them to be jungle only champions as you seem to view them as (perhaps Warwick but the ironic thing is that Lanewick is actually very powerful). For example, Trundle we knew could jungle but we also thought he was a decent laner. Power creep in the lanes has definitely overshadowed champions like him though disallowing them from playing in the lane. If we reduce the necessity of the jungle, we will definitely have to take a look at junglers who are poor laners and fix that up. The ones that come to mind are definitely Trundle and Udyr. But ultimately, I feel that making the jungler a non-necessity is good for our game in general. 我不喜欢jungler就在那边单机10分钟的主意，但是这已经是被摆在桌上的主意。 我们射记时不会把它光限制成就是要去jungle(像是ww，撑线ww也很有威力滴)。 又像川岛，大家都知道jungle很强，但是他撑线也不错，但是因为他jungle太亮眼， 所以就不被允许在线上玩。 如果我们降低jungler的需要，那麽我们会去观察那些线上较弱的jungler并补偿他们， 像是川岛和Udyr就是。但是总之我们觉得让jungler变的非必要是个好主意。 --

※ 发信站: 批踢踢实业坊(ptt.cc) ◆ From: 140.122.76.84