※ 引述《iambeetle (beetle)》之銘言： : I assume that you prefer me to reply you in English, so I would it. : 我假設你想要我用英文回復你，我可以。 : But I notice that there might be some people don't feel comfortable : 但是我知道可能有一部分人不太適應讀一大篇英文， : reading a whole brunch of English. : Therefore I will make it into Chinese as well. : 所以我也會把它翻譯稱中文， 這樣也比較清楚一點。 : Just for the sake of clearness. : ------------------------ : At first, I was quite shock that how could you be so cocky and absolute. : 剛開始，我很驚訝你為甚麼可以這麼自大和絕對化自己想法。 : However, I read it again and I think I know the reason why. : 但是我又讀了一邊以後，我覺得我知道為甚麼了。 : You are either heavily brianwashed, or you knows basically nothing. : 你要不然是完全被洗腦了，就是根本甚麼都不知道。 : I am not gonna argure with you based on hisotry, since I have said that : history is not accurate. : 我不會跟你理論歷史，因為我已經說過歷史其實本來就不準確。 : However, I would like to talk about it based on your logic. : 但是我會將你的邏輯來討論。 : ※ 引述《lerudit (l'Erudit)》之銘言： : : Are you going to talk about the history or the future? : : It is not very difficult to clarify it. : It's very hard to clarfy it, i would say. : 其實，我會說，歷史是很難被認證的。 : Not only the history of P.R.China and Taiwan, but also the world history, : has always been argued over decades. : 不只是中國和台灣的歷史，就連世界歷史，這麼久以來一直被爭論著。 : I was surprised that it seems so easy to solve to you. : 我很驚訝你會覺得對於歷史問題這麼容易就可以解決。 : Then what are those historians and professors doing for such a long time? : slacking off? (lol) : 如果是這樣，那麼這麼久以來，這麼多的歷史學家和教授都在做些甚麼？ : 偷懶嗎？ （笑） : : In the past, for most of the time, Taiwan has been independently existant : : in the world. : : There were Dutch, Koxinga, Chin, Japanese and Chiang ever controlling Taiwan. : : However, only the last two can fully control most of Taiwan. : : (Remember, 2/3 of Taiwan is mountains. The first reliable sea level : : determination was by Japanese.) : : Chinese did build something in Taiwan, such as railway; however, at the same : : time, they were removing railway off from their country. : : Everybody knows Taiwan was ceded to Japan in 1895. : : I don't like Chinese always arguing for price or bargain; : : I don't like Chinese always leaving rubbish everywhere; : : If you Chinese do want to buy something, pay for it or go away. : : If you Chinese do decide to give up something, don't go to ask it back someday. : : Else, don't give up then. : : What do you think we Taiwanese are? : Are you dissing Chinese people here? Where is your hatred from? : 你現在是在針對中國百姓嗎？你對中國普通百姓的憎恨是怎麼來的？ : What is wrong with bargaining? That is a part of culture. : 講價有甚麼不好的？這甚至是文化的一部分。 : And your stereotype is very bad. There are clean and beatiful cities in China. : 你對中國的印象真的很差，雖然我不知道是哪裡來的。 : 中國也有很多漂亮而且干凈的城市。 我相信 但同時世界十大污染城市 中國也有七個 source: CNN http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/04/27/eyeonchina. environment/index.html 當然你也可以懷疑CNN對中國的公正性 : If you want to talk about politics, don't blame people. : 如果你是要講政府和政治，那就不要把怪罪到百姓人民身上。 : : Yes, the history has been interpreted very differently.. : : It is not difficult to clarify, else they won't be able to do any interpreting. : : If you are talking about 'believe' or 'not believe', then we are at different : : level. : : I would talk about 'consideration', 'evidences' and 'research'. : : I may still believe or not believe something, but would think of the reasons. : Regarding to what you said above, : 對於你上面所說的， : I think you have made a big mistake here. : 我覺得你犯了一個大錯誤。 : The fact that History can be interpreted doesn't mean that history : can be interpreted correctly. : 歷史可以被理解這事實並不代錶歷史一定可以被 正確 理解。 : The history itself is ambiguous, if you force to interprete it one-way only, : there must be bias inyour interpretation. : 歷史本來就是很多面化和很模糊（不好意思我真的不知道怎麼翻譯ambiguous) : ，如果你硬是要單一化的理解歷史，那你的理解一定會有偏見。 : And I don't understand that you said you would talk about "considerations", : "evidance" and "research", because you have not. : 我不明白你為甚麼說你會講"considerations", "evidance" 和 "research"， : 因為很明顯你並沒有。 : And if you have done your research, I am sure that you won't get so cocky : anymore. Because there are a lot of sides and bias in the source. : It overwhelms you. : 如果你有做研究的話，那我敢保證你不會再這麼自大。 因為當你在找資料的時候， : 你會發現有很多不同的版本和偏見，立場。 你根本不能應付過來。 : : I suggest you just go away and talk to your president then. : : If he agrees to give up to invade Taiwan or any attacks, we will not have : : to buy any weapons from the US. : : Mr Chinese, we are quite happily living here. If there is any difficulty, : : that is basically by you, or your government. : First of all, I don't like your words "invade" and "attacks", : 首先，我很不喜歡你的字眼“侵略”和“攻擊”， : because we have not invaded or attacked Taiwan. : 因為我們並沒有“侵略”或“攻擊”台灣。 : The fact is we even suggest peace. Also, at least until now, : we haven't started a war. : 我們甚至提倡和平，並且到現在為之，我們並沒有發起戰爭。 拿著700顆飛彈對著人 然後說提倡和平 就像是拿著一把刀架在人家脖子上 然後說我沒要動手 同樣的問題你可以問問日本人或是南韓人 : But I would like to ask you one question. : 但是我想問你一個問題， : Althought Taiwan has bought weapons from the US, do you think those weapon : can protect you? Are they even competitive? : 就算台灣有跟美國買武器，你覺得它們真的有用嗎？真的能招架得住？ 要戰台灣不會贏的 大家都清楚 台灣軍隊爛的很 但是不買 難道就讓解放軍直接開坦克進台北毫無招架之力? 讓700顆飛彈落在台灣 一顆也擋不下來 但是拿個比喻 你會因為世界盃要遇到巴西隊就不踢了 直接0-3任人宰割嗎? : The US sells you weapons for money. : As long as they gets money, they are happy doing it. : 美國是為了賺錢才賣給你武器。 只要它們能轉到錢，它們就開心了。 : : No. If I ask a question: : : Do you call 'my dearest' to every girl? : : Then, do you think they will feel you are friendly if you do that? : : Get your brain geared up, please, Mr Chinese. : I don't think your example helps you. : 我並不覺得你得例子有任何用處。 : It makes non-sense. : 這個例子根本就不是在說同樣的東西， 事實上，這例子我根本不能理解。 : Do we call "my dearest" to every girl? No, we don't. : 我們真的都叫女生“my dearest”嗎？根本不是。 : By the way, I have a name for you to call. No need to call me "Mr. Chinese" : 順便說一下，我有名字，你不用一直叫我“Mr. Chinese”. : : If you are governed by foreigner, such as japanese or whatever, I will accept : : this excuse. Unfortunately, you are governed by Chinese government, which is : : even called 'People's Government'. : : Which government else is 'more of people' than yours? : : You got many political parties meeting every year or every day in so grand : : hall, and never heard they are arguing for anything. Everything agreed 99%. : : How can we believe that everything is due to the government but not the people. : : By the way, if you can take off the 'People' on the title, and go to argue : : or protesst in your parliament, I will believe what you said. OK? : : I am not laughing at you. : : Democracy is a very good status, but you can not get it for free. : : Do something for your own country, for your neighbour's sakes. : Chinese people supports the government when it is doing the right thing. : 中國人民在中國政府做正確的事情的時候，就支持中國政府。 我相信這點 但做不正確事情的時候 也似乎沒什麼辦法 : Till now, for the most of the part, Chinese government is helping the : 到現在為之，中國政府的確在幫助中國發展，所以我們支持。 中國的經濟發展速度目前的確無庸置疑 : country to develop. Therefore we support it. : Over 85% of people support the current goverment in China. : 超過百分之85的人民支持自己的政府。 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^可以請問一下資料出處嗎 不會是新華社吧 : Chinese government fulfills Chinese people's demand. : 中國政府的確實現了很多中國人民的目標。 : What about your government? : If you are so happy about your government, answer the question. : 如果你是這麼支持自己的政府，那你告訴我， : What is the percentage that people support the curent govenment? : 台灣現任政府民意指數多少？ 很差 的確很差 不過做不好就靠選舉換人換黨 我想"政府" 跟"執政黨"可以是兩回事 人民對執政黨不滿 但是不代表想換"政府" 假如那是你的暗示 我不敢說台灣的民主舉機制成熟 但是他的確是相對下的可以被台灣人接受 另外回你的推文 台灣政府要洗腦台灣民眾 在以前的確是很容易 報禁黨禁都是 現在...? 媒體自由 言論自由已經是自由到不像話的地步了 至少台灣這邊 要接收世界各種資訊不會有限制 政府不敢在網路上設限 不會莫名其妙抓 所謂異議份子 你要統要獨 都可以發表自己意見 要用政府洗腦這個字眼 顯然還差的遠 : After all, I am not saying Chinese government always do the right thing. : 但是，說到底，我並不是在說中國政府一直都是很正確的。 : There are evil sides of the government too. Just like any other government. : 中國政府也有做一些不好的事情，就像所有國家的政府一樣。 : But I have a piece of advice for you. : 但是我想要給你一個建議， : Put down your pride. Stop being so cocky, you will learn more. : 收起你的驕傲和自大心。 要是你謙虛一點，你可以學到更多東西。 看完您兩篇大作 第一篇感覺您還理性 至少就我認識的大陸人來說 看完這篇 又覺得很失望 因為你的說法 大概跟中國政府官方說法大同小異 沒什麼新意 在加拿大網路應該沒什麼限制 可以多看看台灣這邊的新聞 blog bbs 看看台灣人是怎麼想的 還有台灣人是不是真的天真地被政府洗腦 --

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