作者l10nel (小失)
看板Eng-Class
标题Re: [文法] 与事实相反
时间Thu Jan 10 17:51:12 2013
※ 引述《l10nel (小失)》之铭言:
: 说到 conditionals,文献一堆,良莠不齐,介绍一本写得极为严谨(比如,不用
: counterfactual 称呼未发生的事或 were to 句子,也没有凭空捏造的 will/would =
: present/future 区别),又基於语料事实试图加以归纳整理的书:
: Conditionals: A Comprehensive Empirical Analysis
: By Renaat Declerck, Susan Reed
: http://tinyurl.com/acq2ztz
: 此书第 215-219 页专门说明 were to (表可能性小)的主要用法。
: 除了大量的实例显示使用正规的 would 外,此书的确指出了 were to 搭配现在式助动
?
: will, can 等字,不无可能,但是所举的这些少数例子,句子内容有其特殊设定、语
义
: ,作者并对说话者为何用 will 提出可信的合理化论据。这些特例的情境,远在
: If he were to steal that, he would be a thief. 这种「正常」句之外。有的这类
例
: ,作者将之改回为含有 would 的句子,原意不变。
: 这本书以务实、讲理的方式处理 would/will,视前者为正常情况,後者为罕见特例(
需
: 符合特定的合适情境),真确反应了语言现实。
→ zofloya:可以请l大波出用will的特殊设定、语义的例句或段落吗,谢~ 01/09 23:24
可能需要花点时间了解一些术语(建议:上 Amazon 看书後的 glossary),请慢用。有
问题可以一起讨论。
Conditionals: A Comprehensive Empirical Analysis
By Renaat Declerck, Susan Reed
(page 174)
5.6 8. Tentative P-clauses combining with a factual Q-clause
In direct speech, a tentative P-clause may sometimes combine with a factual
Q-clause referring to the present:
(319) a. [Wherever you are. you can rely on American express. The Card is
widely accepted worldwide, offering you convenient spending power and
reassuring security.] If it were ever lost or stolen, your Card can usually
be replaced within 24 hours——[the invaluable peace of mind you need when
you're travelling.] (COB-W)
(tentative P + factual Q)
(page 175)
b. They can’t go back to Nigeria even if they wanted to, (because everyone
back there knows what they’ve been doing here.] (The Bulletin) (factual Q +
tentative P)
c. He also has an ‘escape’ clause in his contract with Middlesbrough, if he
were to be offered the post of England coach. (COB-W)
d. If I were to hazard a guess I think it’s very likely he will be the
country’s next president. (COB-W)
There seem to be a variety of reasons for combining a tentative P-clause with
a factual Q-clause, and sometimes there is a choice about whether or not to
use a factual Q-clause, whereas sometimes, as in (319c), there is not. It
would be possible to rewrite (319a) as follows:
(i) If it is ever lost or stolen, your Card can usually be replaced within 24
hours.
(ii) If it were ever lost or stolen, we would usually be able to replace your
Card within 24 hours.
However, while the company does not want to give a negative message that it
is quite possible that the card will be lost or stolen, with the result that
that possibility is treated as remote, the company wants to be as positive as
possible about their ability to replace a card quickly, so this ability is
treated as factual rather than as part of the tentative intensional world set
up by P. Similarly, (319b) could be rewritten 'They couldn't go back to
Nigeria even if they wanted to', but this would place the inability to return
in a nonfactual world, which, although it does not rule out the same
inability applying in the factual world, weakens the speaker’s message about
the real plight of the people referred to. Sentence (319c) cannot be
similarly rewritten, but this is due to the fact that it is a ‘pseudo-Q
conditional’, i.e. the real Q-clause is missing. The apparent Q cannot be
seen as referring to a situation which can be located in the P-world.
Sentence (319d), however, can be rewritten 'If I were to hazard a guess, I
would think it’s very likely that he would be the country‘s next president'.
--
※ 发信站: 批踢踢实业坊(ptt.cc)
◆ From: 76.198.133.1
1F:推 zofloya:先谢谢你保贵的时间跟耐心,有几点要请教你 01/10 23:16
2F:→ zofloya:1 作者提到a tentative P-clause may"sometimes" combine 01/10 23:18
3F:→ zofloya:factual Q-clause,instead of "rarely"意思是不是其实也 01/10 23:19
4F:→ zofloya:不很那麽罕见,只要说话者有特别强调的语义就可以用? 01/10 23:19
5F:→ zofloya:而且也不会造成听话者的混淆,听话者是能分辨出的 01/10 23:21
6F:→ zofloya:2 所以If he were to steal, he will be a thief.这句如果 01/10 23:22
7F:→ zofloya:成立,语义上是不是强调他如果有偷(虽然机率非常小),但他 01/10 23:23
8F:→ zofloya:就是小偷的事实是不容质疑的,还是没有这种解读的空间? 01/10 23:24
9F:→ zofloya:或是暗示说话者在客观事实上知道if he的he不太可能偷东西 01/10 23:26
10F:→ zofloya:但可能是之前对he有成见或夙怨,而故意用will的可能性? 01/10 23:27
11F:→ l10nel:我不会否定这样的解读的,只是注意到,两者的相对频率仍大, 01/11 03:46
12F:→ l10nel:在很多场合,如考试、工作、出版等,别人会根据其观点判断 01/11 03:52
13F:→ l10nel:你的用法,你却没机会解释。适时选择"保守"。另外,千万别 01/11 03:57
14F:→ l10nel:将这种would/will的区别误解成是时间上的现在/未来之分。 01/11 04:01
15F:推 zofloya:收到。不好意思,还有一个问题就是,一样都是表达, low 01/11 07:01
16F:→ zofloya:probability in the future,If he should steal, he will 01/11 07:02
17F:→ zofloya:be a thief这个句子的接受度是不是就比较广?比较没有争议 01/11 07:03
18F:→ zofloya:如果是的话,为什麽?习惯用法?还是were to是表达"不可能" 01/11 07:04
19F:→ zofloya:should+V是表达可能,就说话者的角度 01/11 07:05
同一本书第 219 页,说完 were to 便开始用 5 页的篇幅介绍 should,不过最重要的是
第一段:
In both spoken and written British English, should can be used in the
P-clause of an open-P or tentative-P conditional to emphasize that the
possibility of actualization of the P-situation depends on chance or on some
other unpredictable factor. It renders the condition more tentative and is
nearly always interchangeable with ‘by any chance’.
第 220 页其中两例句分别使用 open/tentative:
(426) a. If this appliance should fail to work, we will replace it with
another (open condition) (='If, by any chance, this appliance fails to
work...')
c. If the changes caused hy the Greenhouse Effect should turn out to be as
serious as many people think, emissions of all Greenhouse gases would have to
be minimised. (COB-W) (tentative condition)
The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language, p 188 也说:
■ Conditional should
This expresses slightly greater doubt than the non-modal counterpart: compare
If you should experience any difficulty, please let me know.
with
If you experience any difficulty,..
This is why it cannot be used when there is no element of doubt at all, as in
If you’re my father, why don’t you help me?
and the like. It is usually found in open conditionals, but the remote
construction is also possible: compare
If there should be any opposition, they will/would not go ahead with the plan
(where 'will' indicates open, 'would' remote).
所以看法一致,should + will/would 都可以(有些书甚至倾向告诉你只该用 will)。
可能性由高至低:
if you experience any difficult (开放的可能)>
if you should experience...(多了一点迟疑、保留:by any chance,「要是」) >>
if you experienced... (可能性很小,但仍有可能) >=
if you were to experience ... (可能性再稍小一点,或语气更委婉,但仍有可能!)
试图解释 should 可能性比 were to 高:
should 只是个 modal auxiliary,这种用在 conditional 的 should 属於 low degree
of modality,只在基本的 if you experience 语义上多加了一点迟疑保留,故可能性较
高,接近 if you experience,因此搭配 will 不成问题;它本身的形式也不是像 were
to 属於 subjunctive (尽管旧一点的看法如 Fowler 把 should 称为 subjunctive),
通常带有可能性很小、虚拟、假设/不真实世界这类含义。
※ 编辑: l10nel 来自: 76.198.133.1 (01/11 18:03)
20F:推 hopeliu:请教l大所以原问题counterfactual 建议选(d)were to搭配 01/12 02:29
21F:→ hopeliu:would? 01/12 02:30
22F:→ zofloya:thanks a lot 01/12 06:00
23F:→ l10nel:to h:当然建议选(d)would,何况是考试,这两篇内容提供理由。 01/12 06:08
24F:→ l10nel:但:were to不是counterfactual,指未来,仍有发生的可能,用 01/12 06:10
25F:→ l10nel:remote/tentative/hypothetical称之都好过counterfactual 01/12 06:12
26F:推 TouchAgain:l大这两篇都解释得很清楚了吧 这不是完全不可能发生的 01/14 19:55
27F:→ TouchAgain:情况 怎麽还在一直坚持counterfactual? 01/14 19:57
28F:→ hopeliu:谢谢l大解惑 01/14 20:41
29F:→ hopeliu:to TouchAgain:我只是问考试时怎麽选较好 若你眼睛或脑有 01/14 21:15
30F:→ hopeliu:问题 请去就医 01/14 21:16