林前15:44 [繁体中文和合本] 所种的是血气的身体，复活的是灵性的身体。若有血气的身体，也必有灵性的身体。 林前15:44 [希腊文各主要抄本版本都一致，希腊文原文一字不差，都相同] σπειρεται σωμα ψυχικον εγειρεται It is sown body soulish/natural; it is roused (it resurrects) σωμα πνευματικον ει εστιν σωμα ψυχικον body spiritual ; if it/there is body soulish/natural εστιν και πνευματικον it/there is and/also/therefore spiritual ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 希腊文倒装句构，指”也有” ψυχικον直译是”属魂的”，和合本多翻译做”血气”。 ”血气(魂性)的身体”就是属於服在堕落罪恶世界的已知自然律， 也就是属於堕落人本性的血气，是无法承受神的国的。 ”灵性的身体”才是肉体复活时的型态，由上帝改变，脱离堕落败坏的血气， 被圣灵掌管，才能承受复活与天国。 ”身体”与”肉体”指的都是希腊文σωμα(soma)，简称”体”。 σωμα πνευματικον”就是灵性的身体／灵性的肉体。 G4983　σωμα　soma From G4982; the body (as a sound whole).. JMS1978板友，很在意”灵”与”魂”的差别，在这段经文也是强调的重点。 ”血气(魂性)的身体”，与”灵性的身体”，都是身体， 而不是只是飘流的鬼魂，或是亡灵；复活的身体也能与物质界互动。 不论是魂性肉体，或是灵性肉体，都是肉体。保罗都没有否定”肉体复活”。 ”肉体复活”是早期基督教强调的正统教义，由圣经与早期基督教文献都可以验证的。 -- 上月球!月球是中国人吴刚不可分割的一部分 抓嫦娥!此女意图分裂中国领土脱离中国掌握 杀玉兔!玉兔为资产阶级之玩物!日帝之玩偶! --

※ 发信站: 批踢踢实业坊(ptt.cc) ◆ From: 118.166.240.71 ※ 编辑: Geigemachen 来自: 118.166.240.71 (08/10 03:42) ※ 编辑: Geigemachen 来自: 118.166.240.71 (08/10 03:51) 进天国者一定要有灵体，肉体复活变成”灵性的肉体”。　 林前 15:51 我如今把一件奥秘的事告诉你们．我们不是都要睡觉、乃是都要改变、 15:52 就在一霎时、眨眼之间、号筒末次吹响的时候．因号筒要响、死人要复活成为不朽 坏的、我们也要改变。 15:53 这必朽坏的、总要变成不朽坏的．〔变成原文作穿下同〕这必死的、总要变成不死 的。 15:54 这必朽坏的、既变成不朽坏的．这必死的、既变成不死的．那时经上所记、死被得 胜吞灭的话就应验了。 15:55 死阿、你得胜的权势在那里．死阿、你的毒钩在那里． 15:56 死的毒钩就是罪．罪的权势就是律法。 15:57 感谢　神、使我们藉着我们的主耶稣基督得胜。 ※ 编辑: Geigemachen 来自: 118.166.238.250 (08/10 20:38) ※ 编辑: Geigemachen 来自: 118.166.238.250 (08/10 20:40) 如果恶人复活，也得到灵体，（跟义人同受肉体复活的恩典，也领受灵体）但是下地狱， 那也没什麽严重的瑕疵。耶稣讲过工价的比喻，恩典是否多给劳力较少的人，主人有权利 决定。 如果恶人复活，但没有得到灵体，仍然以魂体复活，承受地狱的败坏，那也没有你所说的 问题。 不管是哪一种理论，老郑否定肉体复活的言论，都显得与圣经格格不入，矛盾极多。 ※ 编辑: Geigemachen 来自: 118.166.238.250 (08/11 19:28) http://www.preteristsite.com/rezresources.html Irenaeus, AD 180 The Church, through scattered through the whole world to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples the faith in one God... and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation;... and the resurrection from the dead, and the bodily assumption into heaven of the beloved Christ Jesus our Lord, and His appearing from heaven in the glory of the Father, to comprehend all things under one head, and to raise up all flesh of all mankind." http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0316.htm Tertulian, AD 210 On the Resurrection of the Flesh Chapter 1. The Doctrine of the Resurrection of the Body Brought to Light by the Gospel. The Faintest Glimpses of Something Like It Occasionally Met with in Heathenism. Inconsistencies of Pagan Teaching. http://www.catholic.com/library/Resurrection_of_the_Body.asp The Apostles’ Creed "I believe in . . . the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the flesh. Amen" (Old Roman Symbol [A.D. 125]). Polycarp of Smyrna "[W]hoever perverts the sayings of the Lord for his own desires, and says that there is neither resurrection nor judgment, such a one is the firstborn of Satan. Let us, therefore, leave the foolishness and the false-teaching of the crowd and turn back to the word which was delivered to us in the beginning" (Letter to the Philippians 7:1–2 [A.D. 135]). Justin Martyr "The prophets have proclaimed his [Christ’s] two comings. One, indeed, which has already taken place, was that of a dishonored and suffering man. The second will take place when, in accord with prophecy, he shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality, but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire along with the evil demons" (First Apology 52 [A.D. 151]). "Indeed, God calls even the body to resurrection and promises it everlasting life. When he promises to save the man, he thereby makes his promise to the flesh. What is man but a rational living being composed of soul and body? Is the soul by itself a man? No, it is but the soul of a man. Can the body be called a man? No, it can but be called the body of a man. If, then, neither of these is by itself a man, but that which is composed of the two together is called a man, and if God has called man to life and resurrection, he has called not a part, but the whole, which is the soul and the body" (The Resurrection 8 [A.D. 153]). Irenaeus "For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in . . . the raising up again of all flesh of all humanity, in order that to Jesus Christ our Lord and God and Savior and King, in accord with the approval of the invisible Father, every knee shall bend of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue shall confess him, and that he may make just judgment of them all" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 –4 [A.D. 189]). Tertullian "After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers. . . . All who have died since the beginning of time will be raised up again and shaped again and remanded to whichever destiny they deserve" (Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]). "Therefore, the flesh shall rise again: certainly of every man, certainly the same flesh, and certainly in its entirety. Wherever it is, in the safekeeping with God through that most faithful agent between God and man, Jesus Christ, who shall reconcile both God to man and man to God, [and] the spirit to the flesh and the flesh to the spirit" (The Resurrection of the Dead 63:1 [A.D. 210]). "In regard to that which is called the resurrection of the dead, it is necessary to defend the proper meaning of the terms ‘of the dead’ and ‘ resurrection.’ The word ‘dead’ signifies merely that something has lost the soul, by the faculty of which it formerly lived. The term ‘dead’ then applies to a body. Moreover, if resurrection is of the dead, and ‘dead’ applies only to a body, the resurrection will be of a body. . . . ‘To rise’ may be said of that which never in any way fell, but which was always lying down. But ‘to rise again’ can only be said of that which has fallen; for by ‘rising again’ that which fell is said to ‘re-surrect.’ The syllable ‘re- ’ always implies iteration [happening again]. We say, therefore, that a body falls to the ground in death . . . and that which falls, rises again" (Against Marcion 5:9:3–4 [A.D. 210]). Augustine "Perish the thought that the omnipotence of the Creator is unable, for the raising of our bodies and for the restoring of them to life, to recall all [their] parts, which were consumed by beasts or by fire, or which disintegrated into dust or ashes, or were melted away into a fluid, or were evaporated away in vapors" (The City of God 22:20:1 [A.D. 419]). "God, the wonderful and inexpressible Artisan, will, with a wonderful and inexpressible speed, restore our flesh from the whole of the material of which it was constituted, and it will make no difference to its reconstruction whether hairs go back to hairs and nails go back to nails, or whatever of these had perished be changed to flesh and be assigned to other parts of the body, while the providence of the Artisan will take care that nothing unseemly result" (Handbook of Faith, Hope, and Charity 23:89 [A.D. 421]). ※ 编辑: Geigemachen 来自: 118.166.234.182 (08/12 06:04) 希腊文新约都明白告诉你肉体复活的道理了。 在各个正典书卷已经着作完成，”正典书单”还在制定时， 持守使徒教义的教父与教会领袖们，就依照圣灵感动的”使徒教义”制定”正典书单”， 他们都支持肉体复活，认为反对肉体复活者是异端。 如果你能够用希腊文新约否定”肉体复活”， 并且说明你有比”制定正典书单”还可靠的教义传统， 以及更能掌握”使徒传承教义”的教义理论来源，你才能否定”肉体复活”。 你拿着”支持肉体复活”的教父们与初代会众依照圣灵感动编选的新约圣经， 想要尝试否定肉体复活，逻辑上就难免矛盾，是很难成功的的。 耶稣由圣灵感孕是我们的共识了。 ”这些说法是如何演变讨论”就是我回文贴给你的资料。 ”肉体复活”是使徒与其教会的教导，而”反对肉体复活”是诺斯底异端的思想。 你再多找一些资料，就会更加确认，早期基督教会(诺斯底除外)一面倒支持”肉体复活” 从圣经无法否定”肉体复活”，从使徒教会传统也无法否定”肉体复活”， 老郑的复活理论权威性何在，可性度多高，答案就很明显了。 ※ 编辑: Geigemachen 来自: 220.136.171.123 (08/12 21:16) ※ 编辑: Geigemachen 来自: 220.136.171.123 (08/12 21:17) ”原文圣经”与”使徒传给早期基督教教义”当然有公信力， 比起老郑的大绝，实在更有权威（不论是不是大绝）。 原文圣经，与早期基督教传统，都否定的说法，要怎样寻求支持呢？ 老郑创立了不符合原文圣经的理论，且老郑又违反使徒传承教义， 也无编定正典的公信力，你为什麽要相信他呢？ 引用圣经，却主张新约正典主编们都反对的主张，就已经很矛盾了； 更何况於原文圣经，与早期教会传统都是矛盾的，更不可信了。 ※ 编辑: Geigemachen 来自: 220.136.171.123 (08/13 03:00) 早就找到ㄧ堆了： http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_Testament_uncials 请你去读The Greek New Testament,由 United Bible Societies出版， 正文以前就有62页说明抄本的来源，有好几百处抄本的来源， 还有很多教父引用的早期圣经引句当做验证。 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 建议你去读读死海古卷的的希伯来文本，两千多年来极少有”失真” 。 建议你相信”可靠的抄本”，死海古卷，教父引用的新约，梵蒂冈抄本， 西乃抄本，都比你描述的道听涂说现象要准。 如果”传讼几年 就会失真”，老郑拿失真的圣经来解，怎麽会可靠呢？ 除非他知道原来的经文。 你愿不愿意接受”原始基督教”的教义？ 符合”单纯文献研究 神学争辩”的正统信仰，不见得就没有话语实践与见证。 （其实你跟别人讨论教义，也是”神学争辩”） 你说摄理教会的教义，是用生命换来的； 但是原始基督教的教义，是用殉道者的鲜血与生命换来的， 还有文献研究与抄本考据可以验证。 如果你摆明了不考虑文献研究，也不考虑原始基督教信什麽， 也相信圣经90%都要当譬喻解，那麽就跟我向springxx说的一样， 怎样讨论了也是白说。 ※ 编辑: Geigemachen 来自: 220.136.171.123 (08/14 00:04) ※ 编辑: Geigemachen 来自: 220.136.171.123 (08/14 00:10) 我还以为，你已经放弃”文献研究”了，幸好你并没有。 一世纪的内容，最有力的就是新约正典。 一世纪末，新约正典着作完毕。 二世纪末，新约正典书单开始制定。 我给你看西元一世纪的： 西元50-60年，罗马书： 8: 10 基督若在你们心里，身体就因罪而死，心灵却因义而活。 8: 11 然而，叫耶稣从死里复活者的灵若住在你们心里，那叫基督耶稣从死里复活的， 　　　也必藉着住在你们心里的圣灵，使你们必死的身体又活过来。 8: 23 不但如此，就是我们这有圣灵初结果子的，也是自己心里叹息，等候得着儿子的 　　　名分，乃是我们的身体得赎。 西元50-60年，哥林多前书： 15: 35 或有人问：死人怎样复活，带着甚麽身体来呢﹖ 15: 36 无知的人哪，你所种的，若不死就不能生。 15: 39 凡肉体各有不同：人是一样，兽又是一样，鸟又是一样，鱼又是一样。 15: 40 有天上的形体，也有地上的形体；但天上形体的荣光是一样，地上形体的荣光 　　　 又是一样。 15: 44 所种的是血气的身体，复活的是灵性的身体。若有血气的身体，也必有灵性的 身体。 15: 52 就在一霎时，眨眼之间，号筒末次吹响的时候。因号筒要响，死人要复活成为不 　　　 朽坏的，我们也要改变。 15: 54 这必朽坏的既变成不朽坏的，这必死的既变成不死的，那时经上所记死被得胜吞灭 的话就应验了。 这段经文我把希腊文找出来，确定”身体”是”肉体”，承受天国的是灵性的肉体， 魂性的肉体是必朽坏的。 西元50-60年，腓利比书 3: 21 他要按着那能叫万有归服自己的大能，将我们这卑贱的身体改变形状，和他自己 荣耀的身体相似。 ※ 编辑: Geigemachen 来自: 220.136.171.123 (08/14 08:57) 这是解释”灵体”与”魂体”差别的经文喔。 应该这样类比： 烤肉(类比灵性肉体)是用火烤消毒的肉，生肉(类比魂性肉体)没有经过彻底的消毒， 两者都是肉。要吃了容易消化，有益健康，(类比承受神的国)， 两者选一个，就选烤肉(类比灵性肉体)。 林前15:44 [繁体中文和合本] 所种的是血气的身体，复活的是灵性的身体。若有血气的身体，也必有灵性的身体。 林前15:44 [希腊文各主要抄本版本都一致，希腊文原文一字不差，都相同] σπειρεται σωμα ψυχικον εγειρεται It is sown body soulish/natural; it is roused (it resurrects) σωμα πνευματικον ει εστιν σωμα ψυχικον body spiritual ; if it/there is body soulish/natural εστιν και πνευματικον it/there is and/also/therefore spiritual ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 希腊文倒装句构，指”也有” ψυχικον直译是”属魂的”，和合本多翻译做”血气”。 ”血气(魂性)的身体”就是属於服在堕落罪恶世界的已知自然律， 也就是属於堕落人本性的血气，是无法承受神的国的。 ”灵性的身体”才是肉体复活时的型态，由上帝改变，脱离堕落败坏的血气， 被圣灵掌管，才能承受复活与天国。 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 这很有老郑品牌，90%譬喻的味道 使用”譬喻”方式用来建立教义，会产生非常多种可能。 现代自由神学就把超自然描述全都当作譬喻，这也是90%譬喻风格的另一种发展诠释可能。 与其使用规范松散的”90%譬喻”，解释充满极多歧异可能的方式来进行讨论， 不如回到希腊文的原典原文，与教会历史采用的复活见解。 ※ 编辑: Geigemachen 来自: 220.136.171.123 (08/14 09:40)