推 ieoboy: 簡單來說，子的人性是在創世前父預定所造，並在父ㄧ切預定 03/11 01:05 → ieoboy: 創造以先，而後在馬利亞腹中取了人性(人性納入神性)，並進 03/11 01:05 → ieoboy: 入肉身成為人的樣式。 03/11 01:05 我覺得還是以’兩種時間觀’來闡述比較清楚：從神永遠救贖的計畫－經論的角度而言， 基督的人性是在創世之前就被造了，因此是第一個被造之物。但是從人類的歷史觀點而言 ，基督是在２０００前成孕的時候，由聖靈在瑪利亞腹中創造了一個人性（參考約翰歐文 ＜聖靈論＞），進而取之。 推 ieoboy: 所以箴8:22 way(造作)的原意是否就是指造物，就很重要， 03/11 07:05 → ieoboy: 老魚弟兄有相關資料嗎？ 03/11 07:05 Strong’s原文碼就很清楚. way的原文是: derek deh'-rek From H1869; a road (as trodden); figuratively a course of life or mode of action, often adverbially: - along, away, because of, + by, conversation, custom, [east-] ward, journey, manner, passenger, through, toward, [high-] [path-] way [-side], whither [-soever]. 它的字根是: daak daw-rak A primitive root; to tread; by implication to walk; also to string a bow (by treading on it in bending): - archer, bend, come, draw, go (over), guide, lead (forth), thresh, tread (down), walk. darak的意思是一條線;可以被用為走路,或為弓上弦.到了derek,就變成一條馬路;並可被 用來生命的過程或行為的方式.換句話說,這個字具有一種先後次序,或一連串發生的事件 的意思.例如john gill的解釋則是:"as he was "in the beginning of his way" of creation, when he went forth in his wisdom and power, and created all things;" 明顯的,way跟道做為創造時神的智慧和能力有關.Gill還說:" and "in the beginning of his way" of grace, which was before his way of creation"這則是把way與恩典連 繫起來,但是,時間點仍然在creation之前. 但是若您回去看經文,您會發現這處經文用了兩個條件來肯定這個時間點在創造前: Pro 8:22 The LORD possessed me (1)in the beginning of his way, before (2)his works of old. 另外,亞他那修在<Four Orations>2.22.51說到: 51 (continued). For the passage in the Proverbs, as I have said before, signifies, not the Essence, but the manhood of the Word; for if He says that He was created ‘for the works,’ He shews His intention of signifying, not His Essence, but the Economy which took place ‘for His works,’ which comes second to being. For things which are in formation and creation are made specially that they may be and exist2541, and next they have to do whatever the Word bids them, as may be seen in the case of all things. For Adam was created, not that He might work, but that first he might be man; for it was after this that he received the command to work. And Noah was created, not because of the ark, but that first he might exist and be a man; for after this he received commandment to prepare the ark. And the like will be found in every case on inquiring into it;—thus the great Moses first was made a man, and next was entrusted with the government of the people. Therefore here too we must suppose the like; for thou seest, that the Word is not created into existence, but, ‘In the beginning was the Word,’ and He is afterwards sent ‘for the works’ and the Economy towards them. For before the works were made, the Son was ever, nor was there yet need that He should be created; but when the works were created and need arose afterwards of the Economy for their restoration, then it was that the Word took upon Himself this condescension and assimilation to the works; which He has shewn us by the word ‘He created.’ And through the Prophet Isaiah willing to signify the like, He says again: ‘And now thus saith the Lord, who formed me from the womb to be His servant, to gather together Jacob unto Him and Israel, I shall be brought together and be glorified before the Lord2542 （繼續）如同我前面已經說過的，箴言中的經文並不是指道的素質，而是祂的人性；因為 若祂（父）說祂（子）乃是為了‘作品（works）’被造，祂想要表明祂的動機並不是要 表達祂的素質，而是那個‘為了祂作品的緣故’而隨後產生的經綸（Economy）。凡被塑 造和創造的萬物都是特別為了它們的存在而被製造的，好叫它們能夠執行道所吩咐他們的 ，我們在萬物中都能夠清楚的看見這點。亞當的被造並不是為了他能夠做工，而是讓他先 成為一個人；而是在這之後，祂才領受命令做工。諾亞並不是因方舟被造，而是祂能夠先 成為一個人，然後再領受預備方舟的命令。在我們查考的每一件事例都是如此；--偉大的 摩西先被造為一個人，接著才被託付管理百姓的職責。所以，在此我們也得如此假設；要 你們也看見了，道不是被造而存有，而是‘太初有道，’之後祂才‘為了作品’和向著我 們的經綸（Economy）的緣故，被差遣。在作品被造之前，子就是永遠的，並沒有任何創 造祂的需要；而是當作品被造的時候，才產生為了恢復它們而有的經綸。接著，道自己屈 尊成為與作品一樣的；這就是他用‘祂造了’這句話要告訴我們的意思。先知以賽亞也是 這樣說：‘如今，那位在母腹中塑造我為祂僕人的耶和華說，要聚集雅各和以色列歸於祂 ，我要聚攏他們，並在耶和華前榮耀他們（譯者：根據英文重譯）。’ 在2.22.53裡面,他又說: 53. ‘He created’ then and ‘He formed’ and ‘He set,’ having the same meaning, do not denote the beginning of His being, or of His essence as created, but His beneficent renovation which came to pass for us. Accordingly, though He thus speaks, yet He taught also that He Himself existed before this, when He said, ‘Before Abraham came to be, I am2549;’ and ‘when He prepared the heavens, I was present with Him;’ and ‘I was with Him disposing things2550.’ And as He Himself was before Abraham came to be, and Israel had come into being after Abraham, and plainly He exists first and is formed afterwards, and His forming signifies not His beginning of being but His taking manhood, wherein also He collects together the tribes of Israel; so, as ‘being always with the Father,’ He Himself is Framer of the creation, and His works are evidently later than Himself, and ‘He created’ signifies, not His beginning of being, but the Economy which took place for the works, which He effected in the flesh. For it became Him, being other than the works, nay rather their Framer, to take upon Himself their renovation2551, that, whereas He is created for us, all things may be now created in Him. For when He said ‘He created,’ He forthwith added the reason, naming ‘the works,’ that His creation for the works might signify His becoming man for their renovation. And this is usual with divine Scripture2552; for when it signifies the fleshly origination of the Son, it adds also the cause2553 2549 John viii. 58. for which He became man; but when he speaks or His servants declare anything of His Godhead, all is said in simple diction, and with an absolute sense, and without reason being added. For He is the Father’ s Radiance; and as the Father is, but not for any reason, neither must we seek the reason of that Radiance. Thus it is written, ‘In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God 2554;’ and the wherefore it assigns not2555; but when ‘the Word was made flesh2556,’ then it adds the reason why, saying, ‘And dwelt among us.’ And again the Apostle saying, ‘Who being in the form of God,’ has not introduced the reason, till ‘He took on Him the form of a servant;’ for then he continues, ‘He humbled Himself unto death, even the death of the cross2557 ‘祂造了’和‘祂塑造了’和‘祂設立了’都有同樣的意義，不是意指祂存有的開始，或 祂的素質是被造的，而是祂臨到我們的恩慈和新樣（renovation）。同理，雖然祂這樣說 ，然而祂也教導祂自己存在於這一切之前，當祂說‘還沒有亞伯拉罕就有我；’和‘祂立 高天，我在那裏；’和‘我與祂一同佈置萬物（譯者：根據英文重譯）。’如同祂自己是 在亞伯拉罕之前，而以色列是在亞伯拉罕之後，明顯的祂乃是先存在，再被塑造。而祂的 被塑造不是指祂的存有有一個開始，而是祂取了人性。在其中，祂也聚集了以色列的眾支 派。這就是‘永遠與父同在（being always with the Father）。’祂自己就是萬有的塑 造者，祂的作品顯然在祂之後，而‘祂造了’並不是代表祂存有的開始，而是為了這些作 品而有的經綸，就是祂在肉身中所完成的。這就是祂，與作品不同，而是它們的塑造者親 自取了它們的新樣，好叫儘管祂為了我們的緣故被造，萬有如今能夠在祂裏面被造。因為 當祂說‘祂造了’的時候，祂繼續用‘作品’解釋，好叫祂為了作品的創造，能夠被當做 是祂為了祂創造的緣故，而成為人。當聖經論及子肉身的組織的時候，也常常這樣講，它 往往也加上，其原因乃是祂的成為人；但是，當他或祂的僕人有任何關於祂的神格的宣告 的時候，都是帶著絕對的含義，沒有任何其他的理由，往同一個方向論述。因為祂是父的 光輝；就如同父是光輝一樣，這是毋庸置疑的，我們也不能質疑光輝的存在。所以，經上 記著，‘太初有道，道與神同在，道就是神；’故此聖經並沒有單單說‘道成了肉身’， 而是再加上一個原因，說，‘住在我們中間。’使徒也說，‘他本有神的形像’的時候， 並沒有給出理由，直到‘取了奴僕的形像，’他繼續，‘自己卑微，存心順服，以至於死 ，且死在十字架上；’乃是為了這個緣故，祂成為肉身，並取了奴僕的形像。 在2.21.57裡面,他這樣說: 57. For had He been a creature, He had not said, ‘He begets me,’ for the creatures are from without, and are works of the Maker; but the Offspring is not from without nor a work, but from the Father, and proper to His Essence. Wherefore they are creatures; this God’s Word and Only-begotten Son. For instance, Moses did not say of the creation, ‘In the beginning He begat,’ nor ‘In the beginning was,’ but ‘In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth2581.’ Nor did David say in the Psalm, ‘Thy hands have “ begotten me,”’ but ‘made me and fashioned me2582,’ everywhere applying the word ‘made’ to the creatures. But to the Son contrariwise; for he has not said ‘I made,’ but ‘I begat2583,’ and ‘He begets me,’ and ‘My heart uttered a good Word2584.’ And in the instance of the creation, ‘In the beginning He made;’ but in the instance of the Son, ‘In the beginning was the Word2585.’ And there is this difference, that the creatures are made upon the beginning, and have a beginning of existence connected with an interval; wherefore also what is said of them, ‘In the beginning He made,’ is as much as saying of them, ‘From the beginning He made:’—as the Lord, knowing that which He had made, taught, when He silenced the Pharisees, with the words, ‘He which made them from the beginning, made them male and female2586 2581 Gen. i. 1. ;’ for from some beginning, when they were not yet, were originate things brought into being and created. This too the Holy Spirit has signified in the Psalms, saying, ‘Thou,Lord, at the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth 2587;’ and again, ‘O think upon Thy congregation which Thou hast purchased from the beginning2588;’ now it is plain that what takes place at the beginning, has a beginning of creation, and that from some beginning God purchased His congregation. And that ‘In the beginning He made,’ from his saying ‘made,’ means ‘began to make,’ Moses himself shews by saying, after the completion of all things, ‘And God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because that in it He had rested from all His work which God began to make2589.’ Therefore the creatures began to be made; but the Word of God, not having beginning of being, certainly did not begin to be, nor begin to come to be, but was ever. And the works have their beginning in their making, and their beginning precedes their coming to be; but the Word, not being of things which come to be, rather comes to be Himself the Framer of those which have a beginning. And the being of things originate is measured by their becoming2590, and from some beginning does God begin to make them through the Word, that it may be known that they were not before their origination; but the Word has His being, in no other beginning2591 than the Father, whom2592 祂並沒有稱祂之為被造之物為‘祂生了我，’因為被造之物是從虛無來的，是造作者的作 品；然而流出並不是從虛無來的，也不是一個作品，而是從父而來的，也具有祂的素質。 因著它們都是被造之物；而這位乃是神的道和獨生子。例如，摩西論及被造的時候，並不 是說，‘太初祂生了（In the beginning He beget），’也不是說，‘太初就有（In the beginning was），’而是‘起初，神造了天地。’大衛在詩篇中並不是說，‘你的 手“生了我”，’而是‘製造了我，建立我，’每處都把‘造（made）’字用在被造之物 身上。然而子卻不一樣；因為祂不是說‘我造了，’而是‘我生了，’和‘祂生了我，’ 和‘我的心湧出美道（譯者：根據英文重譯）。’對受造之物，‘起初祂造了；’然而， 對子（Son），‘太初有道。’這就是分別。被造之物乃是在起初被造的，它們都有一個 存在的開始，並連於一個存在的限期；因此，經上論到它們也說，‘起初祂造了，’對它 們說的就是這麼多，‘從起初，祂造了；’—作為主，祂知道祂所造的，祂用下麵的話讓 法利賽人閉口無聲，‘那起初造人的，是造男造女；’當他們還不存在的時候，就有有起 源的事物被造而存在。這也是在詩篇中預表的聖靈，說，‘你起初立了地的根基；’又說 ，‘記念你古時所得來的會眾，就是你所贖的；’很明顯的，在太初發生的就是被造之物 的開始，而在太初的某個時間點，神贖回了祂的會眾。根據他說的‘造（made）’（的意 義），那句‘起初祂造了’的意思乃是‘開始創造（began to make）。’在完成萬物的 創造後，摩西自己說，‘神賜福給第七日，定為聖日；因為在這日，神歇了他一切創造的 工，就安息了。’故此，萬物開始被造；而神的道沒有存在的開始，當然就不會開始存在 ，也不會開始來到世上，而是永遠的。作品被造的時候都有一個開始，它們的開始帶進它 們的存有；而道不是那些開始存有的事物，而是以有開始之萬物的塑造者的身份來到世上 。有起源之事物乃是根據它們的成為（譯者：指從無而成為有），在太初的某個時間點上 ，神開始借由道創造它們，好讓眾人知道在它們的起源前，它們是不存在的。而道的存有 乃是在父裏面，沒有別的起源。他們同意父是無始的，那麼祂（子）在父裏面也同樣是無 始的。祂是父的流出，不是一個被造之物。 還有, 60. And that creature and offspring are not the same, but differ from each other in nature and the signification of the words, the Lord Himself shews even in the Proverbs. For having said, ‘The Lord created me a beginning of His ways;’ He has added, ‘But before all the hills He begat me.’ If then the Word were by nature and in His Essence2607 a creature, and there were no difference between offspring and creature, He would not have added, ‘He begat me,’ but had been satisfied with ‘He created,’ as if that term implied ‘He begat;’ but, as it is, after saying, ‘He created me a beginning of His ways for His works,’ He has added, not simply ‘begat me,’ but with the connection of the conjunction ‘But,’ as guarding thereby the term ‘created,’ when he says, ‘But before all the hills He begat me.’ For ‘begat me’ succeeding in such close connection to ‘created me,’ makes the meaning one, and shews that ‘created’ is said with an object2608, but that ‘begat me’ is prior to ‘created me.’ For as, if He had said the reverse, ‘The Lord begat me,’ and went on, ‘But before the hills He created me,’ ‘ created’ would certainly precede ‘begat,’ so having said first ‘created,’ and then added ‘But before all the hills He begat me,’ He necessarily shews that ‘begat’ preceded ‘created.’ For in saying, ‘Before all He begat me,’ He intimates that He is other than all things; it having been shewn to be true2609 in an earlier part of this book, that no one creature was made before another, but all things originate subsisted at once together upon one and the same command2610. Therefore neither do the words which follow ‘created,’ also follow ‘begat me;’ but in the case of ‘created’ is added ‘beginning of ways,’ but of ‘begat me,’ He says not, ‘He begat me as a beginning,’ but ‘before all He begat me.’ But He who is before all is not a beginning of all, but is other than all2611; but if other than all (in which ‘all’ the beginning of all is included), it follows that He is other than the creatures; and it becomes a clear point, that the Word, being other than all things and before all, afterwards is created ‘a beginning of the ways for works,’ because He became man, that, as the Apostle has said, He who is the ‘Beginning’ and ‘First-born from the dead, in all things might have the preeminence2612 甚至在箴言中，主自己都表明被造之物和流出在本質和所使用的語言都是不同的。祂說了 ，‘耶和華造了我，作為造化的起頭’後，又加上，‘小山未有之先，祂生了我（譯者： 根據英文重譯）。’若道在祂的素質中，其本質是一個被造之物，那麼流出和被造之物間 就沒有分別了。祂也沒有必要加上‘祂生了（我），’用‘祂造了’也就夠了（譯者：亞 他那修在此描述的是希臘文原文的文法，）就好像那個字（譯者：祂造了）是指‘祂生了 ’一樣。然而事實是，祂在說完‘耶和華造了我，作為造化的起頭’後，又不單單加上， ‘生了我’，還在說‘小山未有之先，祂生了我’的時候，加上了個介詞‘但，’以此保 證‘造了’這個字。因為‘生了我’是如此緊緊的接續在‘造了我’之後，這讓它們有同 一個意思，並表明‘造了（created）’有一個賓語，而‘生了我’乃是在‘造了我’之 前。這就好像祂是倒過來說的，先說‘主生了我，’然後才說‘小山未有之先，祂造了我 （But before the hills He created me）’。‘被造’當然在‘出生’之前，才能先說 ‘造了，’然後再加上‘小山未有之先，祂生了我’祂必須表明‘生了’乃是在‘造了’ 之後。因為，說‘在萬有之前祂生了我（Before all He begat me），’祂暗示祂與其他 的萬物是不同的。而這本書前面所展現的也都是真實的，就是沒有任何的被造之物能夠在 其他的被造之物前被造。而萬有乃是在同一個指令下，一同開始存在。故此，那些在‘造 了’之後的話，並不是在‘生了我’之後。而是在‘造了’後面加上‘造化的起頭，’在 ‘生了我’後面，祂不是說‘生了我作為起頭（He begat me as a beginning），’而是 ‘在萬有之先就生了我（before all He begat me）。’而在萬有之先的祂並不是萬有的 起頭，乃是與萬有不同的；若祂與萬有不同（這裏的‘萬有’也包括了萬有的起頭），那 麼祂就與被造之物不同。這就成為一個非常清楚的重點，就是與萬有不同、並在萬有之先 的道，乃是在之後被造為‘造化的起頭，’因為祂成為了人。這就是使徒所說的，祂乃是 ‘起頭’和‘從死人首生的（First-born from the dead），使他可以在凡事上居首位。 ’ 61. Such then being the difference between ‘created’ and ‘begat me,’ and between ‘beginning of ways’ and ‘before all,’ God, being first Creator, next, as has been said, becomes Father of men, because of His Word dwelling in them. But in the case of the Word the reverse; for God, being His Father by nature, becomes afterwards both His Creator and Maker, when the Word puts on that flesh which was created and made, and becomes man. For, as men, receiving the Spirit of the Son, become children through Him, so the Word of God, when He Himself puts on the flesh of man, then is said both to be created and to have been made. If then we are by nature sons, then is He by nature creature and work; but if we become sons by adoption and grace, then has the Word also, when in grace towards us He became man, said, ‘The Lord created me.’ And in the next place, when He put on a created nature and became like us in body, reasonably was He therefore called both our Brother and ‘First-born2613.’ For though it was after us2614 這就是在‘造了’和‘生了我’，‘造化的起頭’和‘萬有之先’的不同，神，先是創造 者，然後因著祂的道住在人裏面，而被成為人的父（Father）。然而，在道的身上就相反 ；因為神，在本質上是祂的父，之後，在道披上了那個為祂而造而製造的肉身，成為人的 時候，卻成為了祂的創造者（Creator）和製造者（Maker）。如同人類接受了兒子的靈後 ，借由祂成為兒女一樣，神的道在披上人的肉身的時候，也被稱為被造（created）的和 被製造的（have been made）。若我們從本質上而言都是兒子，那麼祂從本質上而言，就 成了被造之物和作品。當在恩典中他向著我們成為人，並說，‘耶和華造了我（the Lord created me）’的時候，若我們借由認養和恩典成為兒子（sons），道豈不也是一 樣。接著，當祂披上了被造的本性而在身體中成為與我們一樣的，祂當然應當被稱為（我 們的）弟兄和‘首生的（Frist-born）。’雖然祂是照著我們，為我們被造為人，並在身 體的外觀上成為我的的弟兄，然而，祂仍然被稱為，也是我們中‘首生的（Frist-born） 。’因為世人都在亞當的過犯中失喪了，祂的肉體乃是第一個被救贖和被釋放的，而成為 道的身體。從此以後，我們就能夠與它合併（incorporate）並照著它的樣式得救（譯者 ：請讀者參考《基督教要義》中關於信徒與基督人性聯合，以至於得救的部分）。因為在 它裏面，主成為我們前往天國（Kingdom of Heaven）和祂自己之父的嚮導，說‘我就是 道路，’和‘（我就是）門，’和‘借由我都要進入。’故此祂也被稱為‘從死人中首生 的，’不是因為祂在我們之前就死了，而是為我們必須先死過。然而因為為了我們經過死 並廢除死，作為人，祂也是第一個復活的，為了我們的緣故復活了祂自己的身體。在祂復 活以後，我們也要從祂復活，因為祂在死後沒多久就復活了。 2.22.80是這樣說, 80. Moreover, that the Son should be speaking of the impress that is within us as if it were 2760Himself, should not startle any one, considering (for we must not shrink from repetition 2764) that, when Saul was persecuting the Church, in which was His impress and image, He said, as if He were Himself under persecution, ‘Saul, why persecutest thou Me2765?’ Therefore (as has been said), as, supposing the impress itself of Wisdom which is in the works had said, ‘The Lord created me for the works,’ no one would have been startled, so, if He, the True and Framing Wisdom, the Only-begotten Word of God, should use what belongs to His image as about Himself, namely, ‘The Lord created me for the works,’ let no one, overlooking the wisdom created in the world and in the works, think that ‘He created’ is said of the Substance of the Very2766 Wisdom, lest, diluting the wine with water2767, he be judged a defrauder of the truth. For It is Creative and Framer; but Its impress is created in the works, as the copy of the image. And He says, ‘Beginning of ways,’ since such wisdom becomes a sort of beginning. and, as it were, rudiments of the knowledge of God; for a man entering, as it were, upon this way first, and keeping it in the fear of God (as Solomon says2768, ‘The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom’), then advancing upwards in his thoughts and perceiving the Framing Wisdom which is in the creation, will perceive in It also Its Father2769, as the Lord Himself has said, ‘He that hath seen Me, hath seen the Father,’ and as John writes, ‘He who acknowledgeth the Son, hath the Father also2770.’ And He says, ‘Before the world He founded me2771 弛b者﹜b丐m應當被稱為那個弛c我們裏面的弛m閒i﹜b伸悧▓那個弛m閒i揣o洽p祂一樣﹜b沒有丐i應該丐k驚 片ゥ▁想想（因為我們不介楷o弛b重複）﹜b當掃羅飾h迫那弛c其中有祂的弛m閒i岷n形閒i的教會之 時﹜b祂說﹜b‘掃羅﹜j坎b為什﨣m飾h迫我﹜i’揣o弛o像自己被飾h迫丐g一樣﹜d洽h此（伸悧▓哈f面已腺h 說飾m的）﹜b即若智憚漲L象本身乃是在作品中，並說‘主造了我作為造化的起頭,’沒有 人應該大驚小怪，就好像祂，真實和塑造萬有的智慼▁神獨生的飾e應該把那個屬於祂的像 （的名詞）當做自己的﹜b也揣o洽p﹜b‘失e造丐g我作為造化的起頭,’坎p讓任何丐i高估丐g被創 造弛c世界岷n作品中的智慼A認為‘祂造了’是被用來稱呼那位智憚滲擠銵▁除哈e失m想把酒 摻上水﹜b那麼失m揣o會被當做真痕熄B騙者被審判。祂（智慼^丐e洽p創造者岷n塑造者﹜g窖n而 祂的弛m閒i（▏▋▓r▅ss）被造於作品之中﹜b揣o像洽p像（▏▋▁▇▅）的副本（▃▉▓y）一樣﹜d祂說﹜b ‘造化的起頭﹜b’丐e洽p因為郭p樣的智憐足鬲Y種的開始。也是對於神之認識的初階，好讓 人先進入這條道路，保持對神的敬畏（如同所羅門說的，‘敬畏神是智憚熄}端’）﹜b又 弛c失m的思想中長閒j（▁▄v▁▊▃▅）﹜b弛o察覺弛c創造中塑造萬物的智慼A也在其中察覺到它的 父，即使主自己也說，‘互搢ㄖ琲滿▁揣o洽p看見父丐g﹜b’約翰也慰h到﹜b‘予蚖{子的，連 父都有了。’祂說，‘在世界之前祂建立了我，’因著它的印象作品能夠安定並存到永遠 。任何人當聽到智撲Q造於作品中的時候﹜b不迫o認為真智慼A神的兒子，其本質是被造之 物。祂也覺得有必要加上，‘在大山之先，在世界之先，在眾水之先，在小山之先，祂生 了我，’說‘在被造之先’（祂把一切的被造之物都包括在這下麵），祂就能夠表明，根 據素質，祂不是與那些作品一同被造的。因為，若祂‘為了作品（for the works）’的 緣故被造，卻又在它們之先，祂的存在必然是在祂被造之前。那麼，祂的本質和素質不是 一個被造之物。然而，就如同祂自己加上的，（祂乃是）一個流出（Offspring）。在被 造之物和流出間的不同，兩者本質的相異，都已經在前面解釋過了。 ================================================== 這是我手中比較清楚的資料,您可以參考.簡單的說,要搞清楚這個問題,首先必須深刻的瞭 解亞流爭議中雙方的論點(現在還是有很大的爭議)後,翻覆把<Four Orations>第二部論到 箴言八22的9章63段話前後好好啃10邊以上(這還不包括翻譯是否正確的問題),基本上很難 對這個問題有一個清楚的認識的.:p 希望您能夠看見最後這段話.... ^_________^ --

※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc), 來自: 180.205.129.54 ※ 文章網址: https://webptt.com/m.aspx?n=bbs/JesusLove/M.1458294641.A.ECD.html ※ 編輯: df31 (180.205.129.54), 03/18/2016 17:51:28