我先提供教父的語錄給大家參考,然後再貼上討論的內容. 也請務必參考前面亞他那修的<信仰宣言>. 教父語錄======================== 亞他那修 《尼西亞信經護文（A DEFENCE OF THE NICENE CREED）》 說子（Son，大寫，指神的兒子）是受造的也是正確的，因為這是指祂的成為人。因為受 造是屬於人的。。。這個特徵，也是救主的，但這是指當祂取了身體的時候所說的。。。 對於祂的成為人，合適的話是，主造了我。。。（當聽見）主創造的，奴僕，和他受苦， 我們應當正確的理解他們，而不能理解成與神（格）有關的，因為這是不合理的，而我們 必須把他們理解為他為我們的緣故所穿上的肉體；。。。道成肉身的目的乃是要為所有的 人所獻（為祭），好叫我們，能有份與祂的靈（Spirit，大寫，聖靈），能夠成為（眾） 神（gods，小寫複數，指神化後的人）,這是一個除非借由他穿上我們受造的身體，我們 無法得到的恩典。。。。。for it is true to say that the Son was created too, but this took place when He became man; for creation belongs to man。。。but we must interpret it by that flesh which He bore for our sakes; 。。。so on His becoming man, the words befitted Him, The Lord created Me. 。。。The Lord created, and Servant, and He suffered, we shall justly ascribe this, not to the Godhead, for it is irrelevant, but we must interpret it by that flesh which He bore for our sakes; 。。。that the Word was made flesh in order to offer up this body for all, and that we, partaking of His Spirit, might be made gods, a gift which we could not otherwise have gained than by His clothing Himself in our created body. 亞他那修 《CONTRA ARIANOS》 2.14.11. Hence it holds that the Apostle’s expression, ‘He made,’ does not prove that the Word is made, but that body, which He took like ours; and in consequence He is called our brother, as having become man. But if it has been shewn, that, even though the word ‘made’ be referred to the Very Word, it is used for ‘begat,’ what further perverse expedient will they be able to fall upon, now that the present discussion has cleared up the word in every point of view, and shewn that the Son is not a work, but in Essence indeed the Father’s offspring, while in the Economy, according to the good pleasure[271] of the Father, He was on our behalf made, and consists as man? For this reason then it is said by the Apostle, ‘Who was faithful to Him that made Him;’ and in the Proverbs, even creation is spoken of. For so long as we are confessing that He became man, there is no question about saying, as was observed before, whether ‘He became,’ or ‘He has been made,’ or ‘ created,’ or ‘formed,’ or ‘servant,’ or ‘son of an handmaid,’ or ‘son of man,’ or ‘was constituted,’ or ‘took His journey,’ or ‘bridegroom,’ or ‘brother’s son,’ or ‘brother.’ All these terms happen to be proper to man’s constitution; and such as these do not designate the Essence of the Word, but that He has become man. 故此，使徒‘祂造（He made）’的這個表述是正確的，它並不是說道是被造的，而是指 那個祂所取的與我們一樣的身體。故此，祂成為人，被稱作是我們的兄弟。即使當‘造（ made）’這個字被用來指這位道的時候，它乃是被當作‘生（begat），’現今的討論已 經從每一個角度陳明瞭這個字的意義，並指明子（Son）不是一個成品，從素質上就是父 的流出。而根據父的良善旨意，在經綸（Economy）中，祂為了我們的緣故被造、並被組 成為一個人。我要再看看他們還能掰出其他錯誤的推論？因著這個原因，使徒說，‘祂向 那造祂者盡忠。’在箴言中，甚至稱祂為被造之物。只要我們承認祂成為人，不論我們說 ‘祂成為，’或‘祂被造作（has been made），’或‘被造（created），’或‘被塑造 （formed），’或‘奴僕，’或‘使女之子（son of an handmaid），’或‘人子，’或 ‘被構成（was constituted），’或‘走了祂的旅程，’或‘新郎’或‘兄弟的兒子， ’或‘兄弟，’都是沒有問題的。這些辭彙都能夠合適的別用來描述人的構成。它們都不 代表道的素質，而是祂的成為人。 亞他那修 《CONTRA ARIANOS》 2.20 51 (continued). For the passage in the Proverbs, as I have said before, signifies, not the Essence, but the manhood of the Word; for if He says that He was created ‘for the works,’ He shews His intention of signifying, not His Essence, but the Economy which took place ‘for His works,’ which comes second to being. （繼續）如同我前面已經說過的，箴言中的經文並不是指道的素質，而是祂的人性；因為 若祂（父）說祂（子）乃是為了‘作品（works）’被造，祂想要表明祂的動機並不是要 表達祂的素質，而是那個‘為了祂作品的緣故’而隨後產生的經綸（Economy）。 安波羅修 <兄弟之死--On the Death of his Brother, Concerning the Faith> (Book 3Chapter 7/第七章 46. Hereby we are brought to understand that the prophecy of the incarnation, "The Lord created me the beginning of his ways for his works," (Prov 8.22) means that the Lord Jesus was created of the Virgin for the redeeming of the Father's works. Truly, we cannot doubt that this is spoken of the mystery of the incarnation, for as much as the Lord took upon him our flesh, in order to save the works of his hands from the slavery of corruption, so that he might, by the sufferings of his own body, overthrow him who had the power of death (Heb 2.14). For Christ's flesh is for the sake of things created, but his Godhead existed before them, seeing that he is before all things, while all things exist together in him (Col 1.17). / “在耶和華造化的起頭，在太初創造萬 物之先，就有（英文為created，創造）了我。（箴言 8:22）”的意思是主耶穌乃是為了 父救贖的工作而由童女被造。確實，我們不能懷疑這乃是論及道成肉身的奧秘，因為主之 所以親自穿上了我們的肉體，乃是為了要將祂手的工作從敗壞的奴役中拯救出來，如此祂 更能借著祂自己的身體所受之苦難，推翻那掌死權的一位（希伯來2:14）。故此，基督的 肉體乃是為著受造之物，但祂的神格存在於受造物之前，（讓我們）看見祂是在萬有之先 ，萬有也共存於祂之內。（西1:17） On the Death of his Brother, Concerning the Faith (Book 3)，Ambrose http://individual.utoronto.ca/jskira/syllabus-trinity-church-1054-09.html ( -> http://individual.utoronto.ca/jskira/syllabus-trinity-church-1054-09.html) 安波羅修 <論基督教信仰（Exposition of Christian Faith）> Pg 281 59. 既然宇宙被造發生在道成肉身之前，恐怕你會問我在針對基督道成肉身時如何引用這 一處：“耶和華造了我。”但是要考慮聖經用法是把要來的事好像它們已經在過去發生那 樣說的，為了要表明兩種本性—神性與人性—在基督裏聯合的親密性，免得任何人會否認 他的神性或人性。 60. 例如在《以賽亞書》中你會讀到：“有一嬰孩為我們而生，有一子賜給我們。”這裏 （如在《箴言》裏）限制也先陳明肉身的被造，由此再連到神性的宣告，使你可以知道基 督不是兩位，而是一位，即在世界以前受生於父，又在末後的世代造於童女。所以其意義 就是：在世界之前受生的我就是受造於會死的女人、為一個特定的目標受造的那位。 61. 再有，緊接著“耶和華造了我”這個宣告之前，他說：“我將講說從亙古就有的事。 ”而在說“他生了”之前他事先解釋：“從太初，未有世界以前，沒有諸山以前。” Pg 281 64. 我可以論證：這個人（基督耶穌）就他身體預先被知道而言預先存在，儘管他的權能 亙古就有，因為教會與眾聖徒都在世界開始以前就被預定。但這裏我把這個論證擱置一邊 ，強調被造不關乎神性，而關乎道成肉身的本性，正如約翰自己所說：“這就是我曾說： 有一位在我以後來的人在我以前被造。” ============================= --

※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc), 來自: 49.216.183.117 ※ 文章網址: https://webptt.com/m.aspx?n=bbs/JesusLove/M.1457606283.A.06E.html ※ 編輯: df31 (49.216.183.117), 03/10/2016 18:38:41 ※ 編輯: df31 (49.216.183.117), 03/10/2016 20:00:05 大家也可以參考上述的論點.:) ※ 編輯: df31 (49.216.183.117), 03/10/2016 20:00:38