The Great Debate: Defining "Underground." The successful mass marketing of hip-hop music has affected every area of the culture, including the language and its definitions. Defining "underground" is much more difficult than defining who and what is not "underground." No one debates the reality that all of hiphop was at one time underground-literally unknown to the masses. Some may consider commercially successful artists like Jay-Z and Redman underground or "true to the streets," and the general consensus is that, as highly commercialized artists, Puff Daddy and Will Smith represent the antithesis of what underground means to most. What is deemed underground changes as innovators break through and the members of the next wave of new talent begin to make careers of their craft. Some observers refer to the underground as the "chitterling circuit of hip-hop." "The underground is the very beginning stages of a career," says Sauce Money, Grammy-winning producer and artist whose debut album, "Middle Finger U," drops April 18 on Priority Records. "Before a butterfly can be beautiful and spread its wings to fly, it must put in work as a caterpillar. Before you can be beautiful, you got to go through the ugly trials and tribulations of the underground." JUNKYARD START-UP Anthony Marshall, CEO/president of Lyricist Lounge, which has been a major part of the underground hip-hop scene in New York City, recalls, "We started out as a little get-together in a small space on the Lower East Side of Manhattan. We had two microphones, one broken tape deck and a drum kit with no sticks. It was like the junkyard band in [the cartoon show] 'Fat Albert.' " From those humble beginnings, Lyricist Lounge became a premier showcase of some of New York's finest underground artists (as in "unknown to the masses"), giving exposure to such artists as Mos Def and Foxy Brown. Lyricist Lounge itself has gone from the East Side to national audiences, as a tour and television show featured on MTV. Can an artist, producer or "get-together" receive mass exposure and still be considered underground? "Once you get to a certain point, you cannot be considered underground anymore, even if you are doing what some define as underground music," says Domino, producer/ CEO of Hieroglyphics Imperium Records, an Oakland, Calif.-based label with a roster that includes Del The Funky Homosapien, Souls Of Mischief, Casual and the Prose. "At one point, hip-hop in general was underground. It wasn't in the magazines. It wasn't on television. It wasn't in the movies. It was rarely on the radio. It hadn't come to the surface; it wasn't available to everyone." Steve Rifkind, owner of Loud Records, whose roster includes Wu Tang Clan, a group frequently mentioned as a breakthrough underground act, answers the question from a marketing standpoint. "Underground is no radio play, no video play," RifKind says. "It's a lot of mix-show radio play and college-radio play. Once you build a foundation and fan base, you move out of the underground." MC UP, REP DOWN Pharoahe Monch, recording artist on Rawkus Entertainment, has another philosophy. "Some people feel that if you sell, you are not underground anymore," says Monch, who is considered by many to be an underground artist. I disagree with that. I think that underground is an approach that you take to making a song. Take Eminem. His approach to hip-hop MCing is very underground; he comes from the underground. He's a battle MC. He's a witty MC. But, because he sold tripleplatinum, some might feel he is not underground anymore." Monch, who had mainstream success with his single "Simon Says" (125,000 units, according to SoundScan) from his album "Internal Affairs," describes the elements of the song. "The beat is very underground," he says. "I didn't expect it to get as much radio play as it did. It's not in the format of a typical rap song. I wanted to be direct with people, lyrically, and not give them anything to think about. Arrangementwise, I tried to be mathematically correct in fitting into that [radio] format. Lyrically, there's a lot of vulgarity in the song. But it's not my most underground-sounding song." At times, the sound of what is underground to some is quite different from what is an underground sound to others. Jarret Myer, cofounder/president of Rawkus Entertainment, notes the variety of artists who emerged from the same underground scene. "Eminem was part of that scene, Mos Def was part of that scene, but you can't really say that they have anything in common, aside from the fact that they are both immensely talented," Myer concludes. --

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