On Jul 17, 2014, at 4:41 PM, Steven Chamberlain <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi, > > FreeBSD is as far as I know, quite unique in using Yarrow to provide a > nice, fast CSPRNG for /dev/urandom > > But OpenSSL, LibreSSL, OpenSSH, and various reimplementations of > arc4random(), don't directly use it. They typically take only ~128 bits > from /dev/urandom or through other means, to seed a stream cipher, then > return the output of that. I understand why Linux, even OpenBSD must do > that. Good-quality random bits from the kernel are scarce, so they > *must* be stretched somehow. > > But isn't that essentially what Yarrow does already in FreeBSD? Yes, for many values of "essentially". This is a discussion that always ends in a rathole. > Is there a good reason arc4random_buf() can't take bytes directly from > /dev/urandom or sysctl KERN_ARND? Therefore no longer needing to seed > first, periodically reseed, or use any stream cipher? The "good reason" is the same as above: doing so would cause so much discussion and animosity that it is not worth doing. > > There are a few reasons I mention it now: > > * arc4random relies on the stream cipher being cryptographically strong > between reseeds, or else you could guess previous/later output. FreeBSD > still uses RC4 for arc4random, and that seems increasingly risky; > OpenBSD moved recently to ChaCha-20, but who knows if even that will > prove to be safe in the longer term? > > * after seeding, some arc4random implementations completely forget to > reseed after the process forks - the same 'random' stream of bytes could > occur twice, with security implications > > * LibreSSL tried to detect forking, and to reseed automatically, but > Andrew Ayer showed a corner-case where that still didn't work as > expected (CVE-2014-2970) > > * some arc4random implementations might not be thread-safe > > * (re)seeding can fail sometimes (fd's exhausted reading /dev/urandom, > or that is missing in a chroot; even a sysctl might return an error > code); OpenSSL and LibreSSL each have 'scary' ways to try to gather > entropy in userland as a fallback, especially for Linux; FreeBSD and > OpenBSD may have better expectations that the sysctl will work, and > maybe raise SIGKILL otherwise > > So I wonder, could a simplified arc4random for FreeBSD use Yarrow > directly, to avoid making any of these sorts of mistakes we've seen? Yes, it "could". Whether it "should" is another question on a different layer. > > (There's also the benefit that having many readers from a single > pseudorandom stream, adds an additional kind of randomness to its output). How does having an additional *reader* add additional bits? > This is obviously a complex issue, and some of it will be subjective. > But I welcome your comments. Thanks! Subjective wins. --Paul Hoffman _______________________________________________ [email protected] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-security To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[email protected]"