作者: LaurenceS (Laurence of Formosa) 看板: Christianity 標題: [心得] 東正教的往生觀 時間: Tue Jan 31 13:06:11 2017 東正教的人論是二元論，並且認為兩者皆美好無一是惡 (除了召會以及從其分裂出來的異端之外 我沒有見過其他教會的人說三元論的) ============================================= 呵呵，看Laurence說的，好像鄙派是異端的溫床似的。不過看起來，Laurence不太清楚基 本上靈恩派也都是三元論的。 有鑑於親愛的Laurence缺乏對於基督教教義史的認識，小弟在此根據毛爺爺的：‘為人民 服務“的精神，為Laurence弟兄提供以下原始資料，希望Laurence弟兄參考： ===三元論的希臘教父===== 《游斯丁遗失著作片断--论复活（FRAGMENTS OF THE LOST WORK OF JUSTIN ON THE RESURRECTION）》的第10章—身体得救，并将复活（CHAP. X.--THE BODY SAVED, AND WILL THEREFORE RISE） The resurrection is a resurrection of the flesh which died. For the spirit dies not; the soul is in the body, and without a soul it cannot live. The body, when the soul forsakes it, is not. For the body is the house of the soul; and the soul the house of the spirit. These three, in all those who cherish a sincere hope and unquestioning faith in God, will be saved. 复活是复活已死亡的肉体。因为灵是不死的；魂在身体里面，没有魂身体不能活。身体， 当魂抛弃它时，就死亡了。因为身体是魂的家；魂是灵的家。这在那些热切的为在神里的 盼望和不可挑战的信仰欢呼之人中的三者，将一同得救。 http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ante-Nicene_Fathers/Volume_I/JUSTIN_MARTYR/On_the_Resurrection,_Fragments/Chapter_X. 里昂的爱任纽 《反异端》5.9.1 …the complete man is composed – flesh,soul,and spirit. One of these does indeed preserve and fashion [the man] -- this is the spirit; while as to another it is united and formed – that is the flesh; then [comes] that which is between these two – that is the soul, which sometimes indeed, when it follows the spirit, is raised up by it, but sometimes, it sympathizes with the flesh, and falls into carnal lusts. Those then, as many as they be, who have not that which saves and forms [us] into life [eternal], shall be, and be called, [mere] flesh and blood; for these are they who have not the Spirit of God in themselves. Wherefore man of this stamp are spoken of by the Lord as ‘dead’; for, says He, ‘Let the dead bury their dead,’because they have not the Spirit which quicken them. 2. On the other hand, as many as fear God and trust in His Son’s advent, and who through faith do establish the Spirit of God in their heart – such men as these shall be properly called both ‘ pure’ and ‘spiritual,’and ‘those living to God,’because they possess the Spirit of the Father, who purifies man, and raises him up to the life of God. (FNF01: The Apostolic Fathers with Justin martyr and Irenaeus) 完整的人包含肉体，魂，和灵三部分。三者中维持并塑造人者，乃是灵；此与另一者联结 成形，乃是肉体；介乎灵与肉体之间者为魂; 它有时随从灵，而为灵所提高，但有时体贴 肉体，而堕落于肉身的情欲。所以，凡没有那拯救而形成生命之灵的人，就被称为〔血肉 之人〕因为他们里面没有神的灵。所以这些人被主称为〔死人〕。他说:〔让死人埋葬他 们的死人〕( 路9:60) ，因为他们没有那叫人活的灵。2. 反之，凡是敬畏神，又相信他 的儿子降世，因信有神的灵在心里的人，乃得称为清洁、属灵、向神活着的人，因为他们 有父的灵，这灵洁净人，并将人提高到神的生命. (基督教历代名著集成尼西亚前期教父选集, 基督教文艺出版社) 亚历山大的革利免 《THE INSTRUCTOR: BOOK II（导师：2卷）》 Accordingly, as wine is blended with water,[9] so is the Spirit with man. And the one, the mixture of wine and water, nourishes to faith; while the other, the Spirit, conducts to immortality. And the mixture of both--of the water and of the Word--is called Eucharist, renowned and glorious grace; and they who by faith partake of it are sanctified both in body and soul. For the divine mixture, man, the Father's will has mystically compounded by the Spirit and the Word. For, in truth, the spirit is joined to the soul, which is inspired by it; and the flesh, by reason of which the Word became flesh, to the Word. 同样的，圣灵与人就如同酒与水混合。而这个酒与水的混合体，滋养着信心；同时，另一 个部分，圣灵，（将人） 带入不朽。水和道的混合就叫做圣餐，带着荣耀的恩典，使得 那些带着信心领受的，能得到身体和魂的圣别。因为这个神圣的混合，人，与父的旨意奥 秘的借着圣灵与话结合为一。因为根据真理，灵与魂结合，从它得到灵感；而肉体，也因 为道成肉身的缘故，归于道。 http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Nicene_and_Post-Nicene_Fathers:_Series_II/Volume_V/Apologetic_Works/The_Great_Catechism/Summary 尼撒的贵格利 《护教学：大辩护文（APOLOGETIC: THE GREAT CATECHISM）》中的‘圣餐（THE SACRAMENTS） … It is shown how the Deity gives life from water. In human generation, even without prayer, He gives life from a small beginning. In a higher generation He transforms matter, not into soul, but into spirit … 。。。它告诉我们神如何把生命借由水赐给（我们）。在人的世代，甚至在没有祷告（的 情况下），他（神）从一个小的开始把生命（赐予我们）。在一个较高的世代，他把物质 （指饼和杯）变化入我们的灵里，而不是魂里。。。。 《哲学著作：关于人的造作（PHILOSOPHICAL WORKS: THE TREATISE "ON THE MAKING OF MAN"）》 … so that man consists of these three: as we are taught the like thing by the apostle in what he says to the Ephesians(8), praying for them that the complete grace of their "body and soul and spirit" may be preserved at the coming of the Lord; using, the word "body" for the nutritive part, and denoting the sensitive by the word "soul," and the intellectual by "spirit." 。。。所以人有这三部分：如同我们由以弗所书从使徒领受的，使徒为着他们“体，魂和 灵”完整的恩典祷告，在主再来的时候可以保守他们；用“体”代表富于营养的部分，用 “魂”指明感觉的部分，智慧的部分则用“灵”。。。 http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Nicene_and_Post-Nicene_Fathers:_Series_II/Volume_V/Philosophical_Works/The_Making_of_Man/On_the_Making_of_Man/Chapter_9 CREATE A FREE WEBSITE 《希伯来书解经5-11卷（2-6章）（HOMILIES OF ST. JOHN CHRYSOSTOM ON THE EPISTLE TO THE HEBREWS, HOMILIES V TO IX (CHAPTERS 2 TO 6)）》 2.] In the next place, lest hearing [the words] "after the same [example]," thou shouldest think that the punishment is the same, hear what he adds; "For the Word of God is quick and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and pierceth even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." In these words he shows that He, the Word of God, wrought the former things also, and lives, and has not been quenched.(1) 。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。 "Piercing," he says, "even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit." What is this? He hinted at something more fearful. Either that He divides the spirit from the soul, or that He pierces even through them disembodied, not as a sword through bodies only. Here he shows, that the soul also is punished, and that it thoroughly searches out the most inward things, piercing wholly through the whole man. 接下来，免得听到（这些话）“学那（不信从的样子）”，你要想想惩罚是一样的，听听 他所说的；“神的道是活泼的，是有功效的，比一切两刃的剑更快，甚至魂与灵，骨节与 骨髓，都能刺入、剖开，连心中的思念和主意都能辨明。”这些话表明祂，神的道，精炼 前述的几样东西，他是活泼的，是不会熄灭的。 。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。 “刺入”，他说，“甚至灵与魂也能剖开”。这是什么呢？他暗示一件令人敬畏的事。甚 至他（指神的话）能够把灵从魂分开，或他能够刺穿、分解它们（灵与魂），不只是像剑 切入身体一样。这里，他（保罗）指明，魂也被惩罚，和他（神的话）全面的搜寻出人里 面最深处的事，把全人完全的切开。 http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Nicene_and_PostNicene_Fathers:_Series_I/Volume_XIV/On_the_Epistle_to_the_Hebrews/Homily_7 此處共提供了遊斯丁，愛任紐，亞歷山大的革利免，尼撒的貴格利和金嘴區梭多模的原始 資料。貴格利對於東正教的【能力神學（Theology of Energy）】的重要性，我就不贅言 了。 置於：『東正教是否是二元論？】這個問題，請Laurence參考Lossky的《東正教神學簡介 》最後一章，Lossky講的很清楚，東正教同時接受三元論和二元論。至於Lossky在神學界 的地位，也請Laurence問問您的神甫。 ====三元論的拉丁教父====== 驳斥马吉安 特土良 图片 然而，若你在復活的時候除去了身體，你就會化為無有，這個問題會產生什麼結果呢？同 樣的，「雖然它種下了一個天然的身體（natural body），在復活的時候卻會得到一個屬 靈的身體。」如今，雖然靈與生命天然的原理都擁有各自的身體，以至於「天然的身體能 夠正確的被當作是魂的意思，「屬靈的身體」就是靈，然而，我們沒有理由去懷疑使徒所 說的，魂在復活的時候要成為靈，但是那個身體（就是與魂一同出生，並通過魂為持其生 命的部分，當被稱做是動物的（或天然的））將會成為屬靈的，因為它將會通過聖靈被提 升到永遠的生命中。 If, however, you remove the body from the resurrection which you submitted to the dissolution, what becomes of the diversity in the issue? Likewise, “ although it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.” Now, although the natural principle of life and the spirit have each a body proper to itself, so that the “natural body” may fairly be taken to signify the soul, and “the spiritual body” the spirit, yet that is no reason for supposing the apostle to say that the soul is to become spirit in the resurrection, but that the body (which, as being born along with the soul, and as retaining its life by means of the soul, admits of being called animal (or natural)) will become spiritual, since it rises through the Spirit to an eternal life. Tertullian, The Five Books Against Marcion 5.10, http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ante-Nicene_Fathers/Volume_III/Anti-Marcion/The_Five_Books_Against_Marcion/Book_V/X 奥古斯丁 《信仰和信经》第十章23段 " And inasmuch as there are three things of which man consists—namely, spirit, soul , and body—which again are spoken of as two, because frequently the soul is named along with the spirit; for a certain rational portion of the same, of which beasts are devoid, is called spirit: the principal part in us is the spirit; next, the life whereby we are united with the body is called the soul ; finally, the body itself, as it is visible, is the last part in us. " (Faith and the Creed 10:23, AD 393) 『人是由三部分所构成的，就是：灵、魂和身体。这三者有时被简化为二，因为魂经常跟 灵被一起被提及；因为人里那个有理性的部分，是兽类所无的，称为灵：我们里面最主要 的部分就是灵，其次，我们与身体联合 的生命就是魂；末后，就是身体，那可看见的， 也是我们的最后一部分。』（《信仰和信经》第十章23段（Of Faith and the Creed 10:23）） （http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1304.htm） 耶柔米 《圣耶柔米信件LXXV—LXXXIII（THE LETTERS OF ST. JEROME: LETTERS LXXV TO LXXXIII）》 … The Lord of nature Himself says in the gospel:--"out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies."(1) It is clear from the testimony of another book that "the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth," (2) and that the soul wavers between the works of the flesh and of the spirit enumerated by the apostle,(3) 。。。。自然的主自己在福音书中说过：“因为从心里发出恶念、凶杀、奸淫、淫乱、偷 窃、假见证和谤讟。”（太15：19）另一本书也清楚的见证“人从小时心里怀着恶念” （ 创世记8:21），使徒也见证魂是在肉体和灵的工作间摇摆。（罗马7章末）。。。 http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Nicene_and_Post-Nicene_Fathers:_Series_II/Volume_VI/The_Letters_of_St._Jerome/Letter_79 路加福音1:46 马丁路得 讓我們按次序看看這些字的意思。第一個是「我魂」(和合本譯「我心」)。聖經將人分為 三部分，如保羅在帖前5:23所說的。…人的本質包括三部分—靈、魂、體。第一部分—靈 —是人最高，最深入，及最尊貴的部分。人藉著它可以明白那些不能理解、不能看見，永 恆不變的事。簡單來說，靈就是信心及神語話的居所。 [魂]的本質只能理解那些人理性可以知道及明白的那些事。事實上，理性是這個居所的光 ，除非靈—一個更大的信心之光—管理這個理性的光，它就必然出錯，因為它在處理屬靈 的事上是軟弱無力的。 Martin Luther, Luther's Works , ed., Jaroslar Pelikan (St. Louis: Concordia, 1956), 21:303. 讓我們從聖經中看一個例證。根據摩西的指示，會幕是分為三個部分。第一部分稱為至聖 所；它是神的居所，裡面是沒有光的。第二部分稱為聖所；這裡有七個燈臂及七個燈盞的 燈臺。第三部分稱為外院；它是開放在白天及陽光之下。從會幕我們看到一個基督徒的描 繪。他的靈就是至聖所，神就是住在這個信心的幽暗中；這裡沒有光，因為他是在相信一 些看不到、感覺不到，以及理解不到的事情。他的魂是聖所，當中有七個燈盞，代表各種 的理由、分析、知識及對那些肉眼可見、關乎肉身之事的認知。他的身體是那外院，是對 外開放的，別人亦藉此看到他的工作及生活方式。 Ibid., p. 304. 拉丁教父方面，我提供了特土良，奧古斯丁，耶柔米和路德。事實上，路德還代表德語世 界。奧古斯丁對於西方基督教的影響，也不需贅言。 ====東正教的三元論==== THE ORTHODOX WAY BISHOP WARE “I pray to God that your whole spirit and soul and body may be preserved blameless until the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Thess. 5:23). Here St. Paul mentions the three elements or aspects that constitute the human person. While distinct, these aspects are strictly interdependent; man is an integral unity, not the sum total of separable parts. First, there is the body, “dust from the ground” (Gen. 2:7), the physical or material aspect of man’s nature. Secondly, there is the soul, the life-force that vivifies and animates the body, causing it to be not just a lump of matter, but something that grows and moves, that feels and perceives. Animals also posses a soul, and so perhaps do plants. But in man’s case the soul is endowed with consciousness; it is a rational soul, possessing the capacity for abstract thought, and the ability to advance by discursive argument form premises to a conclusion. These powers are present in animals, if at all, only to a very limited degree. Thirdly, there is the spirit, the “breath” from God (see Gen. 2:7), which the animals lack. It is important to distinguish “Spirit,” with an initial capital, from “spirit” with a small s. The created spirit of man is not to be identified with the uncreated or Holy Spirit of God, the third person of the Trinity; yet the two are intimately connected, for it is through his spirit that man apprehends God and enters into communion with him. With his soul (psyche) man engages in scientific or philosophical inquiry, analyzing the data of his sense-experience by means of the discursive reason. With his spirit (pneuma), which is sometimes termed nous or spiritual intellect, he understands eternal truth about God or about the logoi or inner essences of created things, not through deductive reasoning, but by direct apprehension or spiritual perception -by a kind of intuition that St. Isaac the Syrian calls “simple cognition.” The spirit or spiritual intellect is thus distinct from man’s reasoning powers and his aesthetic emotions, and superior to both of them. Because man has a rational soul and a spiritual intellect, he possesses the power of self-determination and of moral freedom, that is to say, the sense of good and evil, and the ability to choose between them. Where the animals act by instinct, man is capable of making a free and conscious decision. Sometimes the Fathers adopt not a tripartite but a twofold scheme, describing man simply as a unity of body and soul; in that case they treat the spirit or intellect as the highest aspect of the soul. But the threefold scheme of body, soul and spirit is more precise and more illuminating, particularly in our own age when the soul and the spirit are often confused, and when most people are not even aware that they possess a spiritual intellect. The culture and educational system of the contemporary West are based almost exclusively upon the training of the reasoning brain and, to a lesser degree, of the aesthetic emotions. Most of us have forgotten that we are not only brain and will, senses and feelings; we are also spirit. Modern man has for the most part lost touch with the truest and highest aspect of himself; and the result of this inward alienation can be seen all too plainly in his restlessness, his lack of identity and his loss of hope. (The Orthodox Way, pgs. 47-48) Timothy Ware主教是東正教的翹楚和代表。他也把人分成三個部分。 ====華人基督教==== 关于三一神与信徒（上） 贾玉铭 二、关于三一神与信徒 信徒的由来：是神从创世前拣选的，是耶稣宝血救赎的，是圣灵所印证的。 “怜悯、恩慈”是神的品性，“谦虚、温柔”是主的样式，“忍耐”是圣灵的果子。 当初三一 神照自己样式所造的人，也是三而一的人，有灵有魂有体。人既有灵，即有灵 智灵觉，可与灵界交通。人有魂，就有自知自觉。人有体，就有感觉，而有视、听、尝、 嗅、触五种感觉。 属灵与属肉体 林献羔 前 言 读经：哥林多前书2：14－3：5，加拉太书6：1. 人是三元的：灵、魂、体。基督徒只有属肉体与属灵两种。 陳終道 按聖經所記，靈，絕不就是靈魂（靈魂可與生命通用），把靈當作靈魂，是聖經翻譯的問 題。聖經說「神的靈造我」（伯33:4）可以解作神的靈魂造我嗎？又說「你發出你的靈， 他們便受造」（詩104:30）可以說是神發出祂的靈魂，人便受造嗎？又說「人裡頭有靈， 全能者的氣使人有聰明」（伯32:8）。靈（Spirit）與靈魂（Soul）是兩回事，憑甚麼可 把靈，靈魂，身體，三者去其一？希伯來書第四章12節和帖撒羅尼迦前書第五章23節可改 為二元論嗎？ 于中旻、陳終道等：《對再批鬥倪柝聲的平議》(香港：金燈臺出版社，2004)，頁64。 此處請注意，贾玉铭本身是長老會的，應該是改革宗的二元論。 =================================== 根據上面的原始資料，基督教歷史2000年中，三元論遍布在基督教的各個角落，包括 Laurence所屬的【東正教】（希望Laurence弟兄這次不會開始否認敘利亞東正教會是東正 教了！^_____^） 至於Laurence弟兄所：”除了召會以及【從其分裂出來的異端之外】我沒有見過其他教會 的人說三元論的“。很明顯的，古大公教會，東正教，天主教，路德會和改革宗都不是【 從其（地方召會）分裂出來的異端之外】。希望Laurence弟兄能夠根據基督徒的良心和道 德，收回上述不實的指控/言論。 （當然，我雖然不認為地方召會比您懂希臘文--雖然您的希臘文功底是值得懷疑的---但 是，遊斯丁，愛任紐，亞歷山大的革利免，尼撒的貴格利和金嘴區梭多模這幾位涵蓋將近 6000年的大師，他們的希臘文肯定比您【強】吧？呵呵！） 謝謝合作！ 最後，您宣稱： 我有接受比我更懂希臘語的人教導教義 他們負責看懂傳統然後教授給我 不知遊斯丁，愛任紐，亞歷山大的革利免，尼撒的貴格利和金嘴區梭多模這幾位的希臘文是否比您好？如果是，您是否【願意】接受他們的教導？ --

※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc), 來自: 118.100.255.233 ※ 文章網址: https://webptt.com/m.aspx?n=bbs/Christianity/M.1486628787.A.71A.html ※ 編輯: df31 (118.100.255.233), 02/09/2017 16:30:11 → simonwu20923: 三元論 後期改成二元論 因為現在沒人讀原始資料了。:P 大陸章雪富/石敏敏翻譯的，奧古斯丁的《論靈魂的起源》的譯者前言也說過，翻譯完後， 只能承認奧古斯丁是三元論。可以在以下網頁買到： https://world.taobao.com/item/544716282974.htm?spm=a312a.7700714.0.0.BuM40V#detail 不好意思。請問您是Laurence嗎？。。。。應該不是吧？！ 本人本文是針對Laurence某些錯誤的觀點而發。請不要【模糊主題】。如果您 對鄙會人論不滿，歡迎另開一貼討論。謝謝合作。 ============ 以下是東正教的補充資料。摘錄自羅斯基（Lossky）著，楊德友譯的《東正教神學導論 (OrthodoxTheology： An Introduction)》147頁： 希臘教會的教父這樣描述人的本性：或者是理知，靈魂和肉體的三部分的合成，或者是 靈魂與肉體的合一。三分法和二分法擁護者簡單區別一般也不過是使用其中一個屬於而已 。二分法在nous中看到的是理性的靈魂的更高一級的能力，人正是憑藉這能力進入與上帝 的合一。 ------------- 根據Lossky的當然，我也希望Laurence能夠為自己所謂：“東正教是二元論”的說法提出 有力的證據。 這裡是“基督教【研究】”版，而不是“基督教【我認為】”版。希望我們的論點都能夠 根據‘學術精神’，提出佐證。而不是拿道聽途說，或我認為作為自己論證的基礎。 期待Laurence的澄清。 ※ 編輯: df31 (118.100.255.233), 02/09/2017 18:56:24 ※ 編輯: df31 (118.100.255.233), 02/09/2017 18:58:56 他都公開否定亞他那修過，這些人算老幾？:P 不過，我只是想讓大家看看【學術】和【非學術】間的對比。 ※ 編輯: df31 (118.100.255.233), 02/09/2017 20:02:53