作者sherlock1103 (要快樂~不要放棄!)
看板Christianity
標題Re: [轉錄]Re: [問題] 快救我.被魔鬼騷擾到快發瘋自殺
時間Sat Jun 13 11:33:34 2009
首先~感謝st大讓我長知識XDXDXD
※ 引述《strongshort (力量與智慧)》之銘言:
: 不只三篇 其實做的還不少
: 引用一個meta-analysis report
: Intercessory prayer for the alleviation of ill health.
: Roberts L, Ahmed I, Hall S, Davison A.
: Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2009 Apr 15;(2):CD000368. Review.
: 引用最後結論:
: These findings are equivocal and, although some of the results of individual
: studies suggest a positive effect of intercessory prayer,the
: majority do not and the evidence does not support a recommendation either in
: favour or against the use of intercessory prayer.We are
: not convinced that further trials of this intervention should be undertaken
: and would prefer to see any resources available for such a
: trial used to investigate other questions in health care.
: 至少目前看起來 禱告完全無效
我猜既然st大既然提到了meta-analysis~
應該是科學背景的吧~ 這樣應該會更好溝通XDXDXDXDXD
其實st大提到的是摘要部份的conclusion~
其實那個conclusion是包含正文的Author's conclusions(在 P.15),還有
Implication for research(P.16)
Author's conclusions有三點:
1.對於有接受醫療照護的人(For people receiving health care)
The studies that have been done, reported and included in this
review do not show an effect of intercessory prayer.
however, because
this review highlighted no clear effects does not mean that
intercessory prayer does not work.
作者說沒有清楚的效果(clear effect)不代表禱告沒有用
The
limitations in trial design
and reporting are enough to
hide a real beneficial effect and we
found no data to contraindicate the use of prayer for seriously ill
people.
就像我提過的一樣~ 作者自己也提到了試驗設計的限制(limitations in trial
design)
2.對於醫療照護有備禱告打斷的人(這我翻得不好,原文是For those
intervening with prayer,還請高手幫忙)
As we state near the beginning of this review, the trials included in
this review
cannot prove or refute the existence or actions of God.
作者說這些研究沒法
證明或否證神的存在~
不過這不是我們的重點~ 我們的是禱告~這只是順道提一下XD
We have sought to use empirical methods to investigate the effectiveness
of intercessory prayer for those who are sick and, mostly,
this review
suggests no real effect of prayer on health outcomes for the patients
being prayed for.
這部份是說禱告
對於這類的病患沒有實際的效果。
3.For managers or policymakers
In the light of the best available data, there are no grounds to
change current practices in relation to the provision, or not, of
prayer or the associated facilities.
對於管理或政策制定層面,目前沒有足夠的根據去改變現行的醫療照護措施。
這裡指的是跟「是否提供禱告或是相關設備」有關的改變。
Implication for research
1.General
Future studies, if there should be any, should follow CONSORT
guidance on reporting and best practice on their methodological
conduct.This reviewwould havemore data and greater confidence
in its results should this guidance have been followed by the trials
that we have included.
總的來說~如果要繼續研究的話~在研究方法上應該要多注意,以便在未來納入
meta-analysis中一起分析討論。
2. Specific - should there be more trials?
The evidence presented so far is interesting enough to support
further study. However, if resources were available for such a trial,
we would probably use them elsewhere. There are many other
treatments that are in urgent need of evaluation and that are likely
to be more suited to investigation in a randomised trial. Should
someone else have resources for a randomised trial of intercessory
prayer, we have suggested a design based on the best of the trials
we have seen already (Table 1).
但是呢~ 作者認為~如果真有研究資源,不如先投入其他treatment的研究,因為
有很多treatment的研究都很缺資源啊!!!!XDXDXDXDXD
如果真的一定要做~作者也對研究設計提供了一些建議!
總結有兩點:
1.就這一系列的研究,我們真的可以說禱告
完全無效嗎?就連作者
都不敢這麼說呢!
2.我不確定所謂「清楚的效果」(clear effect)是什麼意思,不過我猜是指「統
計上的顯著效果」。
就這點,我想請有受過統計訓練或是科學背景的朋友一起想想:
統計上沒有顯著效果是否就等於
沒有效果?
在統計分析的時候,為什麼我們會那麼重視顯著性(P-value)?顯著性的意義為何?
舉個例子:
今天有A、B兩族群,A族群的平均壽命是 73±5 yrs ,B族群是 71±4 yrs。
如果要檢驗這兩族群的平均壽命在統計上有無顯著差異~得到的P一定大於0.05
那麼~究竟這兩族群的平均壽命有差異嗎? 有統計上的顯著差異嗎? 如果沒有
統計上的顯著差異,我們就可以說他們是一樣的嗎?
這跟統計學的原理有關,有興趣的朋友真的可以好好想想,這是連專業研究人員
都有可能會犯的謬誤。
先這樣~
如有疏漏~敬請不吝指教~ 一起討論、學習!
甘蝦!
--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc)
◆ From: 114.42.164.208
1F:推 onlinegm2003:還有一點硬要說禱告無效,好像已經預設一定無效耶... 06/13 11:37
2F:推 daze:虛無假設本來就是很重要的。 06/13 12:55
3F:推 lssunti:第2點 是有醫療"附加"禱告的那些人 06/17 11:50
4F:→ lssunti:關於第二點,實驗設計目的不在證明神的存在或運行 06/17 11:52
5F:→ lssunti:另外在"這篇"review提到的病患 沒有實際效果 06/17 11:53
6F:→ lssunti:總結二點 作者的意思是 他不敢說禱告沒效 但至少對醫療方 06/17 11:55
7F:→ lssunti:面沒有影響 06/17 11:56
8F:→ lssunti:舉例來說,有效可能在..不怕黑白無常來索命之類的~這也算 06/17 11:59
9F:→ lssunti:是種有效~不過不影響治療成果 06/17 11:59