新闻网址：https://bit.ly/2E4IWDR 以下是英国卫报记者对《索尔之子》导演 Laszlo Nemes 的访谈文章，因为他的新片《日暮》Sunset即将在英国院线上映了。不知有没有人去年影展期间就看过呢？我是非常期待的！电影看似有 Nemes一贯大头跟拍浅景深的疑云幢幢风格、有个和艾玛华生一样美但演技好十倍的女主角、更棒的是还有美好年代极盛期的布达佩斯（鹰眼与黑寡表示：）！ https://imgur.com/wxOs6Xg 《日暮》看来关於高度发展文明的极端与自毁，那 1913 年的背景和百余年後的 2019 今日竟处处似曾相识。Nemes 就从他刚去追过的某部超英片谈起，谈到人们对世道确定性的迷恋、对人们道德完美如神的期待、甚至对网路知识的盲从与对独立自主的放弃... 好像这一切都可以联上《日暮》的剧情成为一场打片访谈？ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mu0ibDrd2Bw 我不是个专业或业余翻译，以下就我所知的来粗翻一下，并附上报导的英文稿与中文翻译平行参照，如有疏漏或谬误还请不吝指正。以下开始正文与翻译： -------------------------------------------------- Son of Saul's László Nemes: 'Our civilisation is preparing for its own destr uction' 《索尔之子》导演拉斯洛奈梅施：「我们文明正准备自毁」 The director of the Auschwitz-set Oscar-winner senses dark times ahead – and believes blockbusters are partly responsible. Is that why his second film, Sun set, is so baffling? 这位拍奥许维兹题材拿了奥斯卡的导演闻到了暴雨将至、且认为商业大片恐要负点责任。 是否因此他的第二片《日暮》如此鬼影幢幢？ Catherine Shoard Fri 10 May 2019 01.00 EDT The day before we met, László Nemes went to see a superhero movie. He didn't last long. "I found it unwatchable and false, boring and self-referential, a world of ideal people who don't behave as humans but more like machines." 我们约见前一天，拉斯洛奈梅施才看了部超英片。他单刀直入：「我觉得看不下去，它虚 幻且无聊、都在自我指涉，充满行为与其说像人不如说像机器的理想化角色。」 He smiles. It's tea-time in the Islington, north London branch of Caffè Nero and Nemes gently explains that such films infantilise viewers in two ways. The plots let them defer responsibility for the fate of the world to demigods; the way they are shot - lots of signposting, everything carefully controlled - offers a false sense of omniscience. 他笑笑。我们在北伦敦以斯灵顿一家Caffe Nero，奈梅施温和地解释这种电影如何在两个 层面弱化观众。首先，剧情让观众把面对世界命运的责任交给一群半神们；其次，它的拍 摄构成，包括一堆方向明显的路标镜头、以及每件事都小心翼翼控制完美，在在给观众一 个虚假的无所不知感。 "I've been extremely saddened by the way cinema has narrowed its language an d created an alphabet that's never been poorer," he says, sipping his water. "Superhero movies take away mystery because there’s nothing in the shadows. All is revealed. And that's not how our relationship to the world is, because, unfortunately, you can know only a fraction. So it gives a false impression of our might." 「对於电影限缩自己语言、换来一组空前贫乏的表意系统，我深感忧伤。」他喝口水续道 「超级英雄电影把神秘剥除了，不留任何事物在阴影中，一切全昭然若揭。这并不是我们 与世界的关系，因为很遗憾地、你只能对世界掌握一点片段。如此，它给你一种我们有大 能的虚假印象。」 Genre fans must be terrible worriers, he continues; prisoners of "an extreme state of anguish" soothed only by narrative certainty. “Superhero films let people put away their fears. But this 'saving' is not very realistic. And if you create only objective films that avoid big questions of life, then we just create machines to eat popcorn.” 类型电影粉丝肯定是群绝望的忧虑者，他续道，已身陷「极度煎熬」只能靠叙事的确定感 来疗癒。「超级英雄电影让人们恐惧一扫而空，但这种［拯救］并不怎麽现实。当你只创 作这种客观中立的电影逃避人生重要问题时，那我们只不过在创作爆米花机器罢了。」 Nemes is not going to make a superhero movie. He could if he wanted, though. Right now, Nemes could make whatever he liked. Three years ago, his first film won an Oscar, a Bafta, a Golden Globe, the director's prize at Cannes and almost everything else in-between. An immersive account of life at Auschwitz for a Jewish prisoner forced to work in the gas chambers, Son of Saul earned awed acclaim for its gravity, ambition and formal virtuosity. 奈梅施并没要拍部超英片，虽然如果他想他也可以，毕竟现在奈梅施可以创作他想创作的 。三年前，他处女座就得了个奥斯卡、Bafta、金球奖、坎城导演奖与其间的几乎每个小 奖。作为一场身历其境的奥许维兹犹太囚工的毒气室工作记述，《索尔之子》以其实地的 重量、叙事的野心、以及形式的精湛获得惊人好评。 The experience, he grins, "really created a sort of positive trauma. A reference point that creates all kinds of expectations. So I’ve been trying to cope with that." Hard partying and snowdrifts of coke? Nope. Nemes's strategy seems to have been to create "trying to remain responsible and to respect the audience". 「这个经验」他微笑道「当真造成某种正向的创伤，成为个造成诸多期待的参考标准，我 也一直试着面对中。」面对派对和毒品的诱惑吗？喔不，奈梅施要面对的看来是「试着保 持责任感、并尊重观众。」 And that means a follow-up just as demanding as his debut - albeit for different reasons. Sunset puts us in the Austro-Hungarian empire on the edge of anarchy in 1913. Our heroine is Irisz Leiter (Juli Jakab), who returns to Budapest and the hat store once owned by her late parents. The world she meets is confusing: does she really have a long-lost brother? Why are the new proprietors of the shop so sinister? Is Irisz swept up in the insurrection or is she somehow its engine? 这暗示着他将交出一部与首作一样高标准的新片，即使原因不只如此。新片《日暮》带我 们走进 1913 年时那处於无政府状态边缘的奥匈帝国。女主角名叫 Isisz Leiter (Juli Jakab 饰演)，她回到布达佩斯、重返已故双亲曾经拥有的那间大帽店。但在她眼前的世 界疑云重重：她是否还有个失踪已久的哥哥？为什麽帽店新主人如此阴险冷峻？Irisz 是 被卷入一场风暴中还是不知不觉正造成一场风暴？ Sunset is a knotty and haunting fairytale. It shares Saul's distinct visuals: camera either closely focused on its lead's face or following hard on their heels at head-height. You get less information than they do. It's intentionally baffling, potentially frustrating. 《日暮》是个既伤脑筋又挥之不去的灰暗童话。它也有和《索尔之子》相似的独特视觉手 法：摄影机不是近距聚焦主角的脸、就是紧跟她脚步看着她後颈。主角能掌握多少资讯， 观众也就掌握多少。这是种有意建立的疑云重重，而且往往令人挫折。 "Sunset is really about our perception of the world," shrugs Nemes. "It's a labyrinth. The audience has to accept confusion as part of the process - and people don't like that! I have come to understand that it creates major anxiety. But that is the challenge and the promise: to experience the world through the eyes of someone who is not a god. Then you're not just a popcorn- eating machine, you're someone for whom this experience can become personal and subjective and meaningful." 「《日暮》当真是关於我们对世界的认知」，他耸耸肩道。「它是个迷宫，观众必须接受 茫然困惑为过程的一部分，而我知人们并不喜欢这样！我了解这种做法造成了极大焦虑： 观众竟要以一个非神之人的有限双眼去经验这世界。如此你就不只是个吃爆米花的机器人 、而是能成为个真人，你的经验才成为个人的、主观的、有意义的。」 Nemes was born in Hungary in 1977, moved with his mother to Paris aged 12 and read international relations at university before studying film-making in New York. He worked as Hungarian filmmaker Béla Tarr's assistant before Saul and Sunset, and now wants to make a movie in English. For the past six months he has lived in London with his wife, a clinical psychologist at UCL. He loves the layers of history here ("Budapest is a city of ruins"), the different nationalities ("It creates a different vibration"), the easy access to 221b Baker Street (he's a slightly unlikely Sherlock Holmes nut). 奈梅施於 1977 年生於匈牙利，12岁随母移居巴黎，大学学国际关系後再赴纽约学电影。 他曾在匈牙利导演陶尔贝洛手下当助理、接着拍了《索尔之子》与《日暮》、现在还想来 拍部英语电影。过去六个月他与在 UCL当临床心理师的妻子住在伦敦，他热爱伦敦这儿的 历史层次（「布达佩斯是个废墟之城」）、这儿的多样国族（「创造了不同的律动」）、 以及邻近贝克街 221b（他看来倒不太像个福尔摩斯迷）。 I first encountered him on the film festival circuit back in 2015 and while fr iendly, he was also guarded and wary. Today, he's lighter: relaxed, even play ful. His English is halting and experimental; he speaks with much less severit y than comes across on the page. Back then he was indignant about a rise of an tisemitism in England. That he has since moved here is cheering – and curious . "Well, I'm still really concerned," he says. "Anti-Jewish feelings are d efinitely very alive and now coming from the left, and that’s rather puzzling . I don't think people realise how pernicious that is.” 我第一次认识他是在 2015 的电影节场合，那时他虽友善、却戒慎警惕。今天，他轻松多 了、也促狭多了。他的英语时常停顿也常在试验、他的口语远比书写来得平易近人。当年 他对英格兰反犹主义兴起感到愤慨，而今他自己竟搬来伦敦既令人雀跃、也令人好奇。「 嗯，我仍然对此相当忧心，」他说道。「反犹情绪如今确实很旺盛，而且这回是来自左派 的，这实在是令人费解，我不认为人们有意识到这伤害有多大。」 Still, he says, at least it’s better than Paris. "That really hurts me. When I moved to France from Hungary I was so relieved at no longer having to be sc ared of intolerance. Then, such sentiments would have been ostracised or at le ast repressed. Now, in many schools, teachers are scared of talking about the Holocaust, as if there was some sort of competition for suffering." He blames "state TV propaganda that fed the population in the 80s and 90s. It united p eople. And so now there’s a payoff." 不过，他仍认为至少这儿比巴黎好。「这点伤我很深。当年我从匈牙利搬到法国时我还如 释重负、觉得再也不用为族群不宽容感到害怕了。在那时，至少这种不宽容情绪是会被摒 弃、或至少会被抑制的。而今，在许多学校里连老师都害怕谈起犹太大屠杀，彷佛这是某 种受害者竞争似地。」他归咎於「国营电视在 1980s-90s灌输大众的政治宣传，它们曾经 团结人们，但现在也产生代价了。」 He continues: "Antisemitism has always been a barometer to measure the moral temperature of a civilisation, for almost mystical reasons. The Jew can go uns een. They are hard to distinguish and so can be the threat coming from inside. Today, it's therefore very alarming. Almost like we’re now past a critical point.” 他续道：「反犹主义一直都是个测量文明道德的温度计，简直像谜一般准确。犹太人可以 隐身社会中，他们外表很难分辨，因此可以成为一个社会内部的威胁。於是到今日这已成 了一个重大警讯，我们几乎已要跨过那条红线了。」 Sunset is more than a historical study. It is a warning that sophisticated societies can combust. Actually, it's a prophecy; Nemes thinks it inevitable that we will follow suit. Not because of the political tinderbox, but because we can't stop fiddling with the matches. "I really have the feeling that a self -assured civilisation such as ours is preparing our own destruction," he says. "Even Europe at the beginning of the 20th century, this incredible whirlwind of creativity and positivity, was already longing for its own demise.” 《日暮》这片不只是个历史考察，它更意在警示文明高度发展的社会仍可能一夕火起。事 实上，它是个预言，奈梅施认为我们无可避免地会走上那毁灭公式。倒不是因为政治凶险 的火匣子本身，而是因为我们总是忍不住要去擦弄那火柴。「我认真觉得一个像我们这样 过度自信的文明，总是在准备步向自我毁灭，」他说道。「即使是 20 世纪初的欧洲，当 时那不可思议的创造力与正向意识，彷佛都早已在渴望自身的殒落。」 I must look a bit downcast. What can he say, he grins. He's from Eastern Europe, fatalism is in his blood, Kafka taught him that while humans struggle to build meaningful things, they are also digging their own graves. So: catastrophic self-sabotage is old news. 我一定看来很沮丧吧？他还能怎麽说呢，他只能咧嘴笑笑。他来自东欧，宿命论已深植血 肉中，卡夫卡早教过他当人们苦苦奋斗建立有意义的事物时，他们也同时在挖掘自己的坟 墓。这样看来，毁灭性的自我破坏早就不是新鲜事。 Nothing to get especially upset about. What has actually got Nemes fretful is, it turns out, computers. They're making it much, much worse. "We take from our brains so much power and give it to machines," he says. "It's unprecede nted. Likewise the incredible amount of imagery we’re producing and the fact so much is virtual. We are building a sort of narcissistic image of ourselves through social media that means we perceive people as potential angels. There's an increasing self-righteousness, and a great moral expectation on human beings I don't think is realistic. Then there's a backlash when we realise wecan't meet this ethical standard. 并没那件事格外令人沮丧，但访谈下来发现，真正令奈梅施感到焦躁的，是电脑，电脑让 这状况每下愈况。「我们从脑中提取出如此多的力量、却都转头交给了机器，」他说道。 「这是前所未见的。同样地，我们所产制的惊人大量的影像、以及我们看见的真实，有很 大程度都是虚拟的。我们正在透过社群媒体打造某种充满自恋的自我形象，而我们将人们 认知为潜在的天使们。一种自以为是的意识正在增长中，然而我认为对人们投以点过高的 道德期待并不切实际。而当我们意识到我们其实做不到那高道德标准时，那反作用力就来 了。」 "I would love to be wrong, but I really believe that democracy and the intern et are not compatible. New technology channels so much of our darkness and we are blind to it. And sometimes the accumulation and spreading of knowledge mea ns people reach a new level of ignorance.” 「我真希望我是错的，但我也当真相信民主与网际网路并不相容。新科技承载了如此多的 黑暗面，我们却对它盲目。甚至有时知识的积累与传播，反而意味着人们的忽视更上一层 楼。」 Nemes feels like a throwback. He engages in the kind of intense mental pingpong I remember only from university. With his Little Prince notebook and his 2am tousle, he could still pass for a student, even at 42, with a shelf full of silverware. He also treads lightly and seems the real deal. I can't remember the last time I talked to someone of my age with no visible smartphone. 奈梅施感觉像是个时光倒流的古人，他让自己投入一种来回密集辩论的脑内乒乓，是个我 只在大学才有的印象。说到大学，看他拿小王子笔记本与一头熬夜乱发，他就算 42 了当 个学生也不违和，只是书架上摆满奖盃而已。他步履轻盈看来真正像个个中高手，另外跟 他谈话眼前全不见手机，上次看到我这年龄的人这样子已不知是何时了。 Recently, he says, he has found himself in situations in which communication was impossible. Where he was speaking to people who couldn't think freely because they had been enslaved by ideologies fed to them by the web. Who believed themselves individuals while reciting mass rhetoric. "So much aggression," he says, shaking his head. "For the first time since I left Hungary I found this oppression of having to adapt my discourse to a sort of well-received set of ideas. It's extraordinary that internet on a voluntary basis creates a newform of totalitarianism. One that is much more dangerous because people thinkthey are free.” 他说道，近来他发现自己常处於无法沟通的处境，常常遇上被喂养网路知识而服膺意识形 态无法自由思考的人们，他们总是自认独立个人、却重复吟诵着大众修辞。「他们如此盛 气凌人，」他摇摇头说道。「自我童年离开匈牙利至今，第一次感受到这种压抑感，彷佛 我必须将我的论述给转化为一组广受大众欢迎的概念。令人叹为观止的是，以自愿使用为 基础的网际网路竟创造了一种新的极权形式，这极权形式更加恐怖，因为人们还觉得自己 是自由的。」 He sighs. Identity politics trouble him for reasons that reach back to Saul. "I've never been called a white man until recently," he says. "But now I'm a white guy from eastern Europe who is a Jew. And so I should only speak about such people. 他叹了口气，认同政治令他忧心良有以也，甚至还可回溯至《索尔之子》。「我过去从未 被称过一声白男，直到最近破功了，」他说道。「但我现在是个白男、来自东欧、还是个 犹太人，因此我就应该只说关於这些人们的事物。」 "This is fractioning humanity - and it's actually reverse racism. It works as racism, but cloaks itself in the beautiful, beautiful dress of tolerance. And that's extremely dangerous." 「这成为了一种片段化的人性，而这其实是种反向种族主义。它如种族主义一般运作，但 给自己包上一件以包容为名的极漂亮糖衣，而这真是超危险的。」 Sunset is released on 31 May; Nemes is giving Q&As after selected 35mm prev iews. 英国5/31会上《日暮》、某些试映场奈梅施也会出席参与问答。 --

※ 发信站: 批踢踢实业坊(ptt.cc), 来自: 1.171.169.55 ※ 文章网址: https://webptt.com/cn.aspx?n=bbs/movie/M.1557602710.A.E76.html ※ 编辑: mysmalllamb (1.171.169.55), 05/12/2019 04:03:18 我要求不太高啦，有美女美颈美帽美衣和美丽的布达佩斯，我就很满意 :D 我相信他们的用意与诉求都是好的，只是如果出口前能够多想一想调整修辞会更好。 ※ 编辑: mysmalllamb (1.171.51.46), 05/15/2019 14:02:01