TF2 - 怎样才能变强 http://www.ozfortress.com/showthread.php?t=37375 by bowt (手握没人比他多的六个冠军 现任澳洲最强队伍clan A的scout, 名人堂成员) 像其他游戏一样，TF2成功的要素就是变的强，变的强的垫脚石就是去想游戏怎麽运作， 然後熟练各种情况。 我收到很多人跟我说他们有沟通上的困难。有沟通上的困难，通常是因为他们不去想游戏 是怎麽进行的。如果你不去想游戏是怎麽进行的，那你是要怎麽沟通咧？当我去等级比较 低的队伍帮打比赛的时候，我发现他们没有沟通上的问题，而是不知道要说什麽重要的话 。 No Mercy写了一篇非常好的文章 http://www.ozfortress.com/showthread.php?t=37274 不过他提到"当我在Intensity队伍的时候，沟通一直是他们的问题，像是过度热心给予太 多乱七八糟资讯的scout，沉默的combo (combo指的是medic+主要的soldier)，或是一些 根本不讲话的人。" 我发现Intensity一直没有进步，他们一直在加强沟通，但是实际上没有什麽进展。对话 中时常掺杂着一些笼统的话语，像是"我们要加强团队合作""我们没有重武器(Soldier demo)的配合""我们没有好好地擅用uber"，我去Intensity解散之前帮打比赛了几次，发现 他们有很糟糕的沟通。解散意外吗? 我现在的队伍Clan A很像当时的Intensity，两个前Intensity的成员(Sheep Yuki)，还有 其他成员cruger aporia还有amd。这些人组在一起怎麽可能会变强? 如果我要去话一个饼图，80%会是去想要怎麽应付各种情况，然後5%才是沟通。当我告诉他 们要怎麽改进之後，队伍进步的非常的快。 只管你所看到的 这就是为什麽我说99%糟糕的TF2玩家完全不知道游戏里面发生了什麽事情。为什麽？因为 他们只注意到他们所能看见的东西。好的玩家知道游戏里面发生了什麽，然後怎麽去运用 他们的优势/劣势。 优势/劣势 TF2最重要的就是领域的占领，要怎麽去占领领域，就是要运用队伍的优势，所谓的优势， 就是uber优势以及人数上的优势。 我拿Granary来做一个例子 情况一 6vs6 进攻cp4 有uber优势 这时候你的队伍已经占领了庭院(cp3跟cp4中间那一块)，你的uber是100%，而敌对只有20% 没有人数上的优势只有uber优势。 uber demoman 为什麽? 因为仓库是室内，Soldier比较难运用他的rocket，rocket jump也不容易，demo 可以用他的sticky到比较难到的地方(好比说二楼的部分)。如果要uber soldier的话， 我会建议从左方二楼推进，不过我不建议这麽做，因为很耗时间。那一般推进的时候， scout会跟着demoman一起进去。 像是这样 http://www.ozfortress.com/media/videos/TF2/2547/example.mp4 (demo+medic scout跟着进去，同时间soldier从左方干扰) 情况二 6vs6 进攻cp4 uber一样 敌方少了demoman 基本上很容易压制住对方得攻击(没有了demo的stickies)，第二个soldier从左边进攻， 主要的Soldier跟demo还有medic一起从右边卷门进去，然後scout占领cp4跟注意敌方scout 情况三 6vs6 进攻cp4 uber劣势 这里没有所谓的进攻，因为有uber劣势。你不想在一个地方让敌方用uber轻松地干掉你吧。 基本上就是守在外面，看能不能逼他们先用uber然後自己赶快退後取得uber优势。 情况四 6vs6 进攻cp4 uber一样 敌方少soldier跟scout 重武器可以试着直接进攻，然後scout到敌方後面逼他们用uber。 战术 希望上面的例子给你们概念战术不是一个最好的方法。因为大部分的时间有太多的因素影响 到你们的战术，像是uber跟人数上的优势或劣势。所以上面的例子只是情况，下面我来解说 如何运用一些战术。这些战术是在两边有同等优势的情况下使用。 Scout占领 重武器继续进攻 这是很多人犯的错误。一个很常见的"不去想游戏怎麽运作" 举个例，在Granary你的队伍赢了mid-fight，有一个soldier两个scouts一个medic活着， 对方，对方只有一个demo跟一个medic活着然後已经撤退。如果你用上述的战术，soldier 跟medic是要怎麽去应付对方的demoman跟medic还有复活的其他人？如果你让重武器占领 cp3，让两个scout进攻，不但能干掉敌对那两个并且取得uber优势，而且还能够占领更多 的领域(庭院)。 不过，有些时候确实scout占领，重武器推进是必要的。 举个例，敌对全部死掉，重武器全部推进取得更大的领域。 (uber+人数优势) 或是对方剩下一个soldier跟medic，你的队伍全部活着，重武器推进能轻松解决他们。 另外，当你有人数上的优势，你绝对不想先用uber。或是当你在防守cp2或是cp3，对方uber 的时候，你会先撤退，然後再推进用uber反制。 建议 刚开始其实是很难去应付更种情况，所以我建议用最简单的战术。当你有优势的时候， 推进并且保护medic。有劣势的时候，防守。看高手比赛的demo，看他们怎们运用战术。 最後就是，不要任意修改你的滑鼠灵敏度，准心大小，准心颜色，或是新的滑鼠。 -- 下面No Mercy有补充 (我不翻译了) Sounds basic but it is rarely properly considered what advantages are truly present and how they stack up against each other and even harder again, what the best course of action for any given advantage is. Knowing this in the many different cases takes time and experience to learn but simplistic models of the most significant potential advantages will go a long way. Having uber while the other team doesnt is a huge advantage if and only iff you can spend your uber to kill their medic, or alternatively bully them out of areas without using your uber. Using up your uber to take ground and capping a point but killing very little is a failed push; now they have uber advantage and will punish you if you dont equally waste their uber, done by playing defensively with escape routes. Both teams having uber vs both teams not having uber is only useful in situations where map positionings (aka choke points) dictate the defensive teams advantage, often only made significant by their demoman. It is ten seconds of positional disrupting, and escape insurance - not much more. Thus grinding your uber at the cost of them getting one too is rarely a significant advantage (it often still is) for the attacking team, and certainly not worth pursuing to miss out on exploiting those player picks you just got instead. Player wise for a defending team: Medic > Demo > Soldier > Scout (in the vast majority of spots on maps) Though, Scout & Scout > Soli & Scout often Consider this sort of heirarchy when evaluating how good your advantage is. Map shape (choke points for demo/soli, open spaces & obstacles for scouts, aerial mid/close perches for solis etc) may affect this slightly, as does the known skill of individual opponents will also affect the singificant of player advantages. Scouts gain value in lower number battles. The size of your advantage as well as which team it swings to is also important. -A small advantage may be used to steal a larger one, or perhaps its not worth using at all (as the natural disavantage of being the aggressor, or the attempting risk overwhelms it) -A better one should mean taking some ground -A huge one may mean 2+ cap points or if the other team is stupid, all 5 as you 'steam-roll', killing lone respawners to maintain your huge advantage. When your advatage is great, dont throw away your life riskily. Trading kills may be beneficial, but theres a good chance your team will just be able to gang up and do it a safer way. Conversely trading kills (i dont mean a scout getting a medic, obv that turns out well) on the defense is usually a bad idea, (would you rather be 4v5 or 2v3?). Sometimes it may be done by 1 scout to buy time, though only when desperate. At any moment something may happen to immediately shift the status of your advantage (often outside your individual control), and the speed which you react to this is a game breaker. What to do strategically with any specific advantage is harder to show without examples as every case will be unique, but its not a bible of hard-coded plays, its just made up thinking about what classes (or uber) youve got up, what they lack, and what this means when thinking about what each class is good and bad at, or where it means they arnt so strong in defense positionally. So next time you've killled both their stupid +fwd scouts or their demo, and you want to finish off you uber before you push, even if the other team is equally grinding... dont, just push. PS: all this relates to push maps, A/D has similarities but also requires a generally different outlook. -- 另外amd也补充 Quote: Originally Posted by geomanis Teams can be fine on 5cp maps when the adv/disadv is easily kept track of leading to a push/pull metagame where teams will push with advantage or fallback and delay until they dont have a disadvantage. But what i find is this mindframe is different for A/D maps like gravelpit. Should you be using utility players or suicide runs to get picks and gain yourself an advantage and then push with it? I will give my opinion which COULD DEFINITELY be wrong or different to what other people think. If you are attacking B on Gravelpit and both teams have even uber you want to gain some sort of positional or player advantage before you uber. Using uber straight into the sentry with demoman then ending with bad positioning and dying is not very good. If you are able to gain control of the roof with your soldiers and take out sentry without using uber with demo (is possible in every common spot people put sentries) then you are able to use your uber with a player/position advantage or sometimes even force enemy team to leave the point and you retain uber. If you have recently failed an unsuccessful push and everybody is respawning you then have a 40 second window while combo grinds uber for rest of team to attempt 1 or 2 suicide attempts. This is much better then simply waiting around and if you are able to get a crucial medic/demo/engineer+sentry pick that puts you in a great position. Just do not do suicides when you are close to uber as you want to be pushing as soon as you get it. Quote: Originally Posted by geomanis Or should you push everybody as a team? Should you be falling back and conceding a point when you have a big enough disadvantage? Or should you try and delay the point and lower your disadvantage by getting a key pick on important players? Keeping your medic alive is the key to being able to defend C after losing A/B, if your medic dies late in the defense while you are trying to slow them down or retake then you pretty much concede C. If you watch CSM finals of -A- vs << on gravelpit you will see us lose our entire team on a retake and consequently lose point C without even a contest. It comes down to whether or not you feel you can do the retake or continue to defend based on players that are alive and uber %. On retakes it is important to know how many players they have on cap point (usually 2 scouts) and this gives you a player advantage on retake as long as you don't walk into stickies (think of a retake as though you are attacking the point). Quote: Originally Posted by geomanis I find that A/D maps are much more difficult than 5cp ones, even though the advantage/disadvantage principle still rings true. Are there different considerations when it comes to A/D maps over 5cp maps? A/D maps are generally easier because the amount of situations that can arise are limited, although mistakes on these maps lead to bigger consequences. There are definitely differences in considerations especially when playing against/with sentry guns and the great uses of height for heavies and more that i can't think of atm. --------- 既然台湾玩TF2比赛的人不多，我就不翻译其他文章了，有兴趣的可以上ozfortress 自行观看。澳洲的战术跟美国相似，就是很一般的class，很少用heavy，除非新的手套 开放以後可能会有增加的趋势。 那下面我提供一些其他资讯 CommFT https://www.youtube.com/user/CommFT 里面有各种职业教学(当然是比赛的职业)，Top Plays of the month，moments of glory 非常推荐!! 说到moments of glory，我队友曾经被选入，而且还登上TF2 blog过!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MNGRSY9t0g 对!!dustbowl也可以比赛。杀了4个澳洲第二强队rewound，包括telefrag我高中同学XDD ESEA 美国各强队的demo http://www.esportsea.com/index.php?s=demos ozfortress 澳洲/纽西兰联盟 http://www.ozfortress.com/ 台湾TF2 blog http://tf2comnews.blogspot.com/ Gamestah 澳洲比赛转拨 http://www.gamestah.com/files/pc/team-fortress-2/ozfortress 还有一个就是Yuki在上周Lan Party总冠军战的pov http://www.ozfortress.com/media/demos/TF2/2961/Bowt_vs_SGL bowt这麽说"这是我看过最好的pov，我没有袒护他(他们两个是队友)因为我不喜欢他， 这麽厉害是因为他的队伍很明显比较弱，整场只赢了一次mid-fight还可以赢4-3。 (对手有4个bowt的前队伍mad dogz成员 但都已退休 加上两个div1的选手) 如果有问题的话可以问我，或是有澳洲的朋友想要加我也没问题 http://steamcommunity.com/id/estrana 补充: Demoman rollout on Granary https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9i_z0JVLeLY Demoman rollout on Badlands https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOXSlBzQBZ8 Soldier rollout on Badlands https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wc8alcQvUjA coL.Jaeger 小技巧 第一集 Bonk的使用 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsgSAco5gB8 第二集 Gravelpit C点防守 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6ny4sE9xGg 第三集 Freight的bug (已不适用) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbMJZ_Vfs9c 第四集 探测角落是否有埋伏的敌人 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLw5IfiSzc8 第五集 medic 治疗的顺序 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCzCJcQjxPY medic治疗的速度 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL7Tzq168Bs rocket jump strafing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcNhmrtAlkk 这个也是 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWxoLwaXWUY 同理 demoman也可以这样做 只要一直按住蹲下键即可 rocket jump script (不建议使用 但是新手可以试试看) 不建议的原因是因为手动的话可以飞的比较远 且可以自由控制飞行高度 不过真要练的好是要花好久的时间 如果懒的练的话就用下面的script //Rocket Jump alias +rocketjump "+jump;+duck;wait;+attack" alias -rocketjump "-jump;-attack;wait;wait;wait;-duck" bind mouse2 "+rocketjump" 上面那四行字贴在soldier.cfg (steam/steamapps/username/team fortress 2/tf/cfg里面) --

※ 发信站: 批踢踢实业坊(ptt.cc) ◆ From: 115.64.34.134 ※ 编辑: kevinloo 来自: 115.64.34.134 (11/21 14:19) ※ 编辑: kevinloo 来自: 115.64.34.134 (11/21 23:17)