作者seekforever (sadnessflower)
看板RedSox
标题[红袜] SIGNING SHANE VICTORINO A MISTAKE
时间Thu Dec 6 21:42:50 2012
http://tinyurl.com/cw38non
SIGNING SHANE VICTORINO A MISTAKE FOR RED SOX
by KIRK MINIHANE
Just because we live in a world where Shane Victorino can make $39 million
over three years doesn't mean it's OK to pay Shane Victorino $39 million over
three years.
Victorino拿的到39M/3yrs的约 不等於红袜该跟他签这个约
Maybe there is a long-term plan -- maybe this paves the way for trading
Jacoby Ellsbury for legitimate starting pitching (which, let us not forget,
is all that really matters) -- but as an individual baseball decision the
addition of Victorino at that price is a mistake, plain and simple.
或许这为红袜开启了交易Ellsbury换SP的机会
但单就棒球观点 这笔约是个错误
Of the 144 major league players with enough plate appearances to qualify for
the batting title last season, Victorino ranked 116th in OPS and 121st in
slugging (that would be one spot ahead of Mike Aviles). I know we have been
told not to care about batting average anymore, but for those of you
dinosaurs who pay attention to that charming but antiquated statistic should
note that Victorino hit a career-worst .255 in 2012, 20 points below his
career average.
上季在打席数足够的球员里 Victorino的OPS仅排名116 SLG排名121(Aviles的前一名)
或许AVG不再是唯一重要的数据 但上一季他只打出生涯最差的.255
比生涯平均低了百分之2(生涯.275)
So for the second time in as many days it appears Ben Cherington -- with many
if not most of the local media only too happy to help with positive spin --
has overpaid for a player coming off of a lousy season. Isn't it supposed to
be the other way? Understanding there has been shifts and guys almost always
get paid more than they should, it still strikes me that Victorino should
come closer to a buy-low candidate than an clear and obvious overpay.
对我而言 Victorino应该是个逢低买进的标的 而不是overpay的对象
And it really shouldn't matter that the Cleveland Indians had already offered
Victorino $44 million over four years, as has been reported. Not a factor. If
that's an actual option for Victorino, you let him go to Cleveland and find
someone else.
就算笑脸人真的开了44M/4yrs的约 也不能改变39M/3yrs是overpay的
应该让Victorino去CLE
I get the Napoli signing, I really do. I think it's too much money for a
player who has played 113 and 108 games the last two seasons (still would
like to know why Texas -- we all agree a pretty solid baseball organization,
right? -- declined on the $13.3 qualifying offer to Napoli while the Sox were
happy to triple it in both years and money) and is coming off of a 2012 line
of .227/.343/.812, but I recognize the upside.
我认同该签Napoli 不过太贵了 前两季他只分别出赛了113跟108场
TEX会连13.3M的qualifying offer都不给 不是没有原因的
而我们在他低潮年後 给了他三倍的合约(虽然我也可以理解是出於他的upside)
Victorino is a platoon player. This is not written to be hyperbolic, to get a
rise, it is a statistical reality. And you'd think for $13 million a year you
would at least get a platoon player who excels against right-handed pitching.
That's not Victorino.
Victorino只是个platoon球员 这不是夸张的说法
就算要给一个platoon球员一年13M 也该给个擅长打右投的(面对右投手的机会较多)
In 2012 Victorino had a .229/.296./.333 line against righties. Now, to be
fair, that came in the worst season of his major league career (it's true --
Victorino landed a $39 million deal after posting the worst OBP, slugging and
batting average of his career, and we aren't exactly dealing with past
numbers that will be confused with Miguel Cabrera's). So let's go just a year
back to 2011. Victorino had a fine season, finishing with a slugging
percentage of .491 and an OPS of .847. Guess what? He was still just a little
better than average against righties -- slugged .455 with an OPS of .787 --
but destroyed lefties, an OPS of 1.032.
上个球季Victorino打右投只有.229/.296./.333
就算考虑到这三项数据都是他的生涯最低 有机会反弹
他表现很好的11年打右投也只有略高於平均的.787 OPS(打左投则是1.032)
For his career Victorino has 2.979 plate appearances against right-handed
pitching as a left-handed batter and his OPS is .732. In his last three
seasons -- which, again, includes 2011, maybe the best of his career -- he
has a .387 slugging percentage in 1,231 at-bats as a left-handed hitter (for
some frame of reference, Darnell McDonald has a career .394 slugging
percentage.) Victorino's struggles as a left-handed hitter were so profound
last season that at the end of the year the switch-hitter began to hit
right-handed against right-handed pitching. To some that might be a red flag,
for the Red Sox it's evidently still another reason to go above market value.
Victorino生涯2979个PA里 用左打面对右投只有.732的OPS
过去三个球季 用左打面对右投也只有.387的SLG 麦当劳的.394都比他高
也导致他在上赛季的最後 被迫用右打来面对右投手
这对红袜来说应该是一个警讯
And those other moves may happen this week. At some point Cherington will
have to get around to finding some reliable starting pitching. And I'm not
talking 38-year-old R.A. Dickey for the two best prospects in the
organization, but someone who fits in the middle of the rotation and is under
some club control contractually. Not an easy find, but an essential one. We
can talk all day about chicken and beer and Bobby Valentine and chemistry and
how much John Henry enables the players and all that stuff, but the Red Sox
were the best team in baseball in August 2011 and have been 30 games below
.500 since because of the starting pitching. If Cherington doesn't solve
that, Napoli and Victorino are meaningless.
这礼拜可能还会有些动作 Cherington必须找几个可靠的SP
我不会拿两个最好的新秀去换38岁的Dickey 但可以便宜用几年的中段轮值倒是可考虑
8BV、啤酒炸鸡都是原因,但红袜从11年8月前全联盟最好的球队变成低於五成30场,
SP的无力绝对是最主要的问题 不解决这点 签了Napoli跟Victorino也一样
It's very early, but the returns on the Era of Discipline have been David
Ross, David Ortiz, Mike Napoli and Shane Victorino for about 110 million
bucks. Not a disaster, but is anyone really overwhelmed by that haul?
回到重视纪律的年代後 签下David Ross、老爹、拿胖、Victorino不是不好,
但这些人还不足以拨乱反正
And Victorino is easily the worst of the four deals. American League batters
had a .731 OPS last season. Victorino has a career .732 OPS against
right-handed pitching. For roughly three-quarters of his at-bats Victorino is
by definition an average hitter. And for that he will be paid $13 million for
each of the next three seasons.
而Victorino的约是上面四笔里面最糟的 生涯对右投只有.732的OPS
换言之 四分之三的打席他都只是个平均水准的打者
而他接下来三个球季都要领走13M
That may not qualify as undisciplined, but it's the worst move Ben Cherington
has made in his tenure as general manager of the Red Sox.
这可能是Cherington接手後最糟的一个动作
---
这篇是WEEI另一个专栏作者写的 可以跟前一篇对照正反观点
大家讨论看看~
--
※ 发信站: 批踢踢实业坊(ptt.cc)
◆ From: 111.243.90.186
※ 编辑: seekforever 来自: 111.243.90.186 (12/06 21:43)
1F:推 alex710707:其实当初签夏威夷人让人挺傻眼的 12/06 21:52
2F:推 sky1686:希望能反弹阿~~~ 不要成为尻佛第二就好了 12/06 22:01
3F:推 maikxz:尻佛那可是又臭又长 很难比 XD 12/06 22:05
4F:→ seekforever:其实Ellsbury生涯打左投也才.762 当然右投手比较多 12/06 22:07
5F:→ seekforever:生涯OPS+ Ells 106 夏威夷人102 12/06 22:07
6F:→ seekforever:Ellsbury FA之後可能拿到6-7年 总额100M以上 12/06 22:08
7F:→ seekforever:当然FA的年纪不同 不过个人不觉得这笔有严重overpay 12/06 22:09
8F:推 meteorhades:其实没那麽严重 因为这笔约也不长 其实要造成伤害的话 12/06 22:16
9F:→ meteorhades:也很有限 12/06 22:16
10F:推 externaload:市场上已经没有CP值更高的选择了 看看BJ Upton的约 12/06 22:21
11F:→ externaload:Swisher也不可能用三年约签到 12/06 22:21
12F:→ externaload:烧哥当然也不可能 12/06 22:22
13F:推 dragon2000:三年就算再不好 也勉强可以接受 台面上也没好货 12/06 22:28
14F:推 MinChuan:夏威夷人现在还看不太出来,不过拿波里这投资不差 12/06 22:53
15F:→ MinChuan:不过今年OF好像也不多,没什麽选择的样子(大家都抢很凶) 12/06 22:54
16F:推 nicknhit:我觉得这篇根本是在鬼扯...根本没那麽多人给你选 12/06 22:57
17F:→ nicknhit:我也觉得签这笔有点意外 但没他说的那麽不堪 12/06 22:57
18F:推 maxspeed150:就没人能签啊......难道要签Bourn吗 这个一定更贵 12/06 22:58
19F:→ nicknhit:更颗颗的是夹克笔 袜迷姑且不论 对於其他队球迷而言 他只 12/06 22:58
20F:→ nicknhit:是个有一年爆发的腿哥 生涯平均109 但只有两季过百 12/06 22:59
21F:推 maxspeed150:拿掉11年 其实Ellsbury和那些腿哥没差多少啊 12/06 23:01
22F:→ maxspeed150:打击可能稍微好一点啦 但是其实也只有好那麽一点 12/06 23:01
23F:→ nicknhit:其中一季爆发 另外一个根本小样本 也就是说扣掉爆发 12/06 23:01
24F:→ nicknhit:他大概只是个90左右的 然後搞不好要跟你要15M+ 12/06 23:01
25F:→ nicknhit:跳出袜迷的角度 以一个对他不熟的他队球迷来说 12/06 23:02
26F:→ nicknhit:我还真的不知道他哪里比Victorino好到可以拿比他多 12/06 23:04
27F:推 lovemost:这篇的说法偏激过了头 12/06 23:05
28F:→ lovemost:Victorino的约我也觉得签得不漂亮,但还不至於到烂约 12/06 23:06
29F:→ lovemost:他没有那麽差,正常发挥下也不会只是个一般等级球员 12/06 23:07
30F:推 nicknhit:讲白了 签Victor就是拿一个签比较短不会卡钱的夹克笔来用 12/06 23:07
31F:推 maxspeed150:这个move本身可以理解 价钱的话当然是overpay 12/06 23:07
32F:→ maxspeed150:不过现在FA不overpay能签得到吗? Pagan的那个约我们 12/06 23:08
33F:→ lovemost:拿今年被讨论的很夯的WAR来讲好了,近三年3.8 5.9 3.3 12/06 23:08
34F:→ maxspeed150:也签不到 在市场上能守CF的人中也没几个了 12/06 23:08
35F:→ lovemost:其实不管怎麽看,他是个还不差但还不到All Star等级 12/06 23:09
36F:→ lovemost:这个约的问题只在於,该是逢低买进的,却用正常水准约签 12/06 23:10
37F:推 roverchi:我怎麽有种只要是超过一年,每年超过10M的约,不管签的是 12/06 23:10
38F:推 nicknhit:跟夹克笔差不多啦 简单说就是这样 人家也是爆过一年 12/06 23:10
39F:→ lovemost:Napoli TEX没签的主因在於球队建队方向的问题 12/06 23:11
40F:→ roverchi:谁~都会有人跳出来说「哈!这是烂约!」的错觉~ 12/06 23:11
41F:→ lovemost:并不是代表他不值这个价,BOS是可以给他足够打席的 12/06 23:11
42F:推 maxspeed150:8年前这个价格能签到吹哥 5年前再加码一点就签到Drew 12/06 23:12
43F:推 tsubasa6405:roverchi说的没错啊XD 12/06 23:12
44F:→ maxspeed150:吹哥待我们家的时候一年也只拿8M 12/06 23:13
45F:→ maxspeed150:只能说 因为现在绑大鱼的风气越来越盛 市场上越来越难 12/06 23:13
46F:→ maxspeed150:看到大物 所以堪用的FA都会被喊很高 12/06 23:13
47F:推 tsubasa6405:如果最後替代小帅哥站CF 这个约到底烂到哪里了@@? 12/06 23:16
48F:推 abc12812:这是逻辑问题 如果现在红袜是差临门一脚 那这约不错 12/06 23:16
49F:→ tsubasa6405:就是没有很赚 各取所需啊 要说签太贵也不至於吧 12/06 23:17
50F:→ abc12812:但如果要重建 等於40M丢到水里 不多是没错 但总还是浪费 12/06 23:17
51F:→ tsubasa6405:当然别人有买比我们家便宜的 不过也不代表我们很盘子 12/06 23:17
52F:→ abc12812:东浪费一点 西浪费一点 等真的要梭哈的时候没筹码就窘了 12/06 23:18
53F:→ seekforever:我觉得 是不是差临门一脚 这要看接下来的动作而定 12/06 23:18
54F:推 nicknhit:水里? 有那麽不堪? 12/06 23:18
55F:推 maxspeed150:其实我觉得根本只是拉不下脸来砍掉重练啦 12/06 23:18
56F:→ maxspeed150:当然如果以砍掉重练的角度来看 Victorino根本没必要 12/06 23:19
57F:→ seekforever:预算许可的情况之下 多屯一点货增加弹性 没什麽问题 12/06 23:19
58F:→ maxspeed150:就让Ellsbury站一年看状况 不值得留就放他走 12/06 23:19
59F:→ maxspeed150:2014~15刚好让JBJ上来 12/06 23:19
60F:→ seekforever:现在payroll到底多少 没人知道 Cherington说是机密 12/06 23:20
61F:→ seekforever:如果如某些人说的上看豪华税门槛(189M) 显然没要重建 12/06 23:20
62F:推 alberthcc:Youkilis 去基基了...............Sad.... 12/06 23:21
63F:→ nicknhit:说真的 我愿意看James Loney站1B Nava站LF Sweeney去RF 12/06 23:21
64F:→ maxspeed150:确定了吗? 12/06 23:21
65F:→ nicknhit:然後来个红袜史上第一只状元 但老板肯吗XD 别的球迷肯吗 12/06 23:22
66F:推 cyclonekkk:丢到水里... 尻佛那约才是真正的丢到水里吧 12/06 23:22
67F:→ seekforever:那当然也不会如abc说的 要梭哈时没筹码 12/06 23:23
68F:→ seekforever:从签了Victorino後 还是继续有传言要补人 12/06 23:24
69F:推 lovemost:市场交易就是这样,红袜是不可能全砍掉rebuild的 12/06 23:25
70F:→ seekforever:看起来目前120M左右 距离预算上限 还有一段不小空间 12/06 23:25
71F:→ lovemost:还要顾一下球迷,总要给球迷个进场的理由 12/06 23:25
72F:→ lovemost:而且这个约的重要性在於他可以守CF,给了很高的灵活度 12/06 23:26
73F:→ lovemost:明年是否要交易Ells就有空间了,算是可以理解的行为 12/06 23:27
74F:推 tsubasa6405:明年开打以後交易的意义就不大了吧@@" 12/06 23:28
75F:推 lovemost:其实如果NYY用12M签到Youk...我反而会觉得也无所谓 12/06 23:29
76F:→ lovemost:他们1B和3B站的是谁?还是花12M买DH吗?我不懂NYY追Youk 12/06 23:30
77F:→ lovemost:有甚麽好理由..... 12/06 23:30
78F:推 nicknhit:1B铁爷 3B屁股痛的A-Rod Chavez走了 势必补个三垒 12/06 23:31
79F:推 maikxz:阿不就 A-Rod 开季不能打 不过好像签不到了 lol 12/06 23:33
80F:推 Jaicabai:希望光头不要去NYY 去笑脸人啦.. 12/06 23:35
81F:推 roverchi:当初他们会拦A-Rod也是因为原本的3B季後报销~ 12/06 23:36
82F:推 lovemost:刚去NYY板才看到这个消息=.=".... 12/06 23:38
83F:→ lovemost:不过也同样代表他们另外27.5M丢进水里了... 12/06 23:39
84F:→ externaload:NYY追Youk哪需要什麽好理由 因为市场上也没人可追了啊 12/06 23:43
85F:→ externaload:开瓶哥 Chavez都被签走了 Drew不愿意platoon三游 12/06 23:44
86F:→ externaload:abc有先看过袜版不需要在总版战这麽大 12/06 23:45
87F:推 hunterqiji:Victorino的约有点overpay,不过不算很大 12/07 05:58
88F:推 jun680825:小帅哥感觉真的被高估了一些 12/07 09:54
89F:推 nokcp3:我觉得VIC差不多7.8百万还OK 一千三有点超过 12/07 11:48
90F:推 maxspeed150:Pagan 10M都算便宜了 近况差但名气较响亮的Victorino 12/07 13:09
91F:→ maxspeed150:要拿比这个价低很难 12/07 13:09