※ 引述《aardvarkww (土猪)》之铭言： : ※ 引述《Piin (过去 现在与未来)》之铭言： : : 这世界上不是只有韩国人想做Li-ion电池。早在10年前就有人在喊Li-ion是潜艇的未来 : : 摇旗呐喊了这麽久，到现在有人真的把成熟的潜艇用锂电池放上去了吗? : : 锂电池的缺点到现在还不太搞的定，韩国也还在想到底要用AIP还是真的要上Li-ion。 : : 同样的技术德国在搞，俄国在弄，韩国也跟着他们的脚步再走。 : : 已经弄出来了 : 你可以回去FOLLOW一下之前有人在讨论的东西 之前讨论那些东西并没有很完全喔，像是DCNS在2008年发出来的新闻稿说已经可以把 锂电池放上潜艇了，结果3年後，2011年一份国际研究报告中出现的DCNS的锂电池文字 跟2008年saft/DCNS新闻稿上的还是一模一样: http://www.forecastinternational.com/samples/F673_CompleteSample.pdf DCNS is investigating the integration of new-generation batteries with Scorpene submarines. This new technology is intended to double submerged endurance at high speed while reducing the indiscretion rate, increasing range, improving safety, and requiring less maintenance – all essential criteria for submariners. The Scorpene design is compatible with both Li-ion batteries and the MESMA AIP. MESMA alone enables a Scorpene to patrol at low speed for three weeks at a time without broaching the surface. To achieve this, DCNS has been working in close cooperation with battery producer Saft. Saft assembles Li-ion cells to form battery modules into a battery system, complete with the necessary control electronics and software, that will power a submarine in complete safety. The Li-ion cells developed by Saft for this application are similar to those used on satellites and have already proven their long lifetime. Saft is also a major supplier of Li-ion batteries for both manned and unmanned underwater vehicles. 在新闻稿上saft还信誓旦旦的说新的Li-ion电池相容於Scorpene潜艇。结果新下水的 这麽多艘Scorpene哪艘现在要改装锂电池了? http://ppt.cc/SJS6 我们再看另一篇报导: COLLINS CLASS – LIFE EXTEND OR EUTHENASE? Batteries: There have been improvements in lead acid battery technology over the past 20 years that are now utilised in newer submarines. Whilst not yet deployed at sea on submarines, lithium ion batteries are close – both DCNS and HDW have invested heavily in this technology 所以在摇旗呐喊了那麽多年，2012年的当下现在还在喊就对了.. 或许再过两年这个科技就会成熟，但绝对不是在2011年到2012年的当下。 这里他们也提到德国HDW的努力。事实上HDW确实已经开发出可以运用在水下的锂电池模组 并且HDW第一个全尺寸的锂电池模组已经装上太阳能船进行测试，不过HDW到现在还没有 松口说何时这东西能上潜艇。 因此我实在不晓得你的信心是从哪里来的。 至於韩国的500吨特战潜艇让我们先看这篇文章: http://ppt.cc/AmUr New Submarines Improve Performance The notable feature of the KSM-500A design is its propulsion, which is all-electric. By dispensing with diesel generators and relying on Li-Ion batteries with more than twice the energy density of lead-acid ones, the KSM-500A will both be “ultra-quiet” and able to sprint for greater distances above 10 kt. than current small submarines, the ADD claims. Packaging a motor, rotor, stator and propellers into an integrated motor-propulsor eliminates the drive shaft and makes room in the aft compartment for a payload module, while a flank-array sonar can extend over almost the whole length of the hull because there is no noisy machinery in the aft section. The KSM-500A concept is not yet frozen and a hybrid system, comprising an AIP unit and Li-Ion batteries, is still an option. 这篇是2012年aviationweek.com的文章，所以韩国人真的那麽有信心麽? 好像也没有喔~ 另外别忘了韩国在开始考虑锂电池前，可是先花了学费学会了怎麽做潜艇，并从小型艇 开始验证新装备的可行性的 (所以到KSM-500A成功以後新的电池才会部属到新的大型潜艇 上) ========================== 锂电池不是只有这些国家在想而已，美国也在想，并且到现在还在测试他的安全性 http://www.dote.osd.mil/pub/reports/FY2010/pdf/other/2010lfte.pdf 2010年美国的测试计画即有包括易损性测试 (Lithium Battery Vulnerability) This project is characterizing the reaction of lithium and lithium-ion batteries to misuse in handling and environmental conditions. Testing was used to identify the type of reaction, burning characteristics, and heat release rate associated with exposing the batteries to dropping, heat, and fire. The results are being used as inputs to the design and development of a prototype battery condition monitoring and protection system. These tests will provide more accurate assessments of the vulnerabilities of ships and submarines that carry and use lithium or lithium-ion batteries. 至少到2011年底为止，我们还没有看到美国人已经对锂电池的安全性做出最後的 结论。 事实上，美国在2005年以前就已经在想在潜艇上面装锂电池了。 ASDS特战潜艇即是美国的第一个尝试。结果在ASDS换装锂电池後不久，ASDS即在 充电时起火并损毁，并最後在2009年除役。 http://www.navytimes.com/news/2008/12/navy_dn_asdsfire_120908w/ 锂电池真的那麽安全吗? 大家对他的信心有这麽大吗? 好像不要把话讲得这麽满喔.. 另外一件发生於雪弗龙电动车上的意外也让大家对锂电池的安全性有所保留。 2011年中，一辆在经过侧面撞击试验的Volt在放置於室外三个星期後起火燃烧。 调查後的结论是撞击测试後他的冷却系统跟电池都有所损坏，因此产生短路後起火 Volt所用的锂电池即LG所生产的锂铁镁电池，也是大家现在认为最安全的锂电池种类 ============================== 说了这麽多小弟只是想跟大家说，虽然现在大家都在嘴炮说锂电池已经可以上船， 安全得很，但事实上就是他的安全性跟设计都还有改进的余地，并且不是马上就可 以利用(但在近未来可以)的科技。 ============================== : 台湾买六套爱三要1800亿新台币，弓三的研发预算可是比这个少一个零都不到 弓三比爱三的话 是 LP比鸡腿。 弓三的整体性能最多跟PAC-2相比。并且到现在 投入的资金比你写得数字要多。下次写东西查一下再写好吗? 另外我讲得可不是只有弓三，而是从天弓计画一开始到现在的情形。 : 错，还有巴西 我写得时候真的忘了巴西(并且也不看好) 不过巴西想玩的方式是由法国提供除核子组件以外的所以技术援助，并且在建造 核子潜艇以前先建造四艘传统动力潜艇做为经验累积。 不过现在巴西似乎还无法确定他的核子潜艇会长甚麽样子，连核心的原型机都要 过两年才会开始测试..因此巴西这艘潜艇的前途仍在未定之数。 我们可以看看最近国外媒体是怎麽报导巴西的SSN计画的: http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/Brazil-France-in-Deal-for-SSKs-SSN-05217/ According to Brazil’s MDD, the nuclear-powered submarine will be far larger, at 6,000t compared to the diesel-electric boats’ 1,400-1,800 tonnes. This is significantly larger than France’s existing SSN Rubis Amethyste class fast attack boats, which weigh in at around 2,730t submerged, and remains larger than France’s planned 5,300t SSN Barracuda class. Some of this can be accounted for by the need for more space, in order to accommodate larger early-stage nuclear propulsion systems. Even so, the famous USS Nautilus managed to displace only 3,500 tons. The most similar size analogues to Brazil ’s proposed submarine is the India’s new Arihant class SSBN, which would raise questions concerning Brazil’s long-term nuclear intentions. Since nuclear weapons are specifically prohibited by Brazil’s current constitution, however, a large SSN fast attack vessel is almost certainly the goal. A 6,000t vessel would fit somewhere between France’s new SSN Barracuda class, and the USA’s 6,450t SSN Los Angeles class. 巴西目前计画的SSN大小已经膨胀到6000吨排水量了，绝对不是原本你以为的那种小船。 如果你有比这篇更新，更加可信的文章欢迎提出，小弟的知识非常浅薄，需要您的帮忙 至於这样的计画要花多少钱呢? Construction of Brazil’s nuclear boat is expected to begin in 2015, and it’ s expected to enter service in 2021. Cost for the submarine is pegged at about EUR 2 billion, with EUR 1.25 billion assigned to Brazil’s indigenous Project Aramar nuclear propulsion/ power program. DCNS’ role involves assistance with hull technology and construction, and with non-nuclear internal technologies. 还没开始造船就已经认为会花20亿欧元了，接下来的研发跟建造费用只会往上跑不会 往下跑的。这是举世皆然的现象。 你这样还认为他会是10亿美元一艘的船吗? 另外就假设他是低功率的船好了，巴西仍然要建立一整套的潜艇支援设备(不与原来 的209共用)。这些建造的费用估计: Finally, Brazil aims to set up improved naval construction facilities and a base capable of handling nuclear submarines at Itaguai, a port just south of Rio. Brazil’s U209 submarines are currently based out of Rio de Janeiro, but that densely populated city offers too many technical and environmental issues to host nuclear-powered submarines. These construction projects are expected to cost EUR 1.868 billion (6.9 billion Reals). The nuclear submarine base will be built by the Sociedade de Proposito Especifico, or SPE consortium, which includes Brazil’s Odebrecht (50%), France’s DCNS (49%) and the Brazilian Navy (1% “golden share,” with veto power). 喔喔喔` 又是另外的19亿欧元喔~ 喔耶~ 至於巴西人的反应炉核心计画先前的预想是2011年要完成设计，2014年完成建造，然後 从5%开始试验直到最後可以用20%浓度的燃料为止，最後，他们计画在2021年要在SSN上 装上自己的炉心。 虽然这一切都想的很好，但从2011年後我们就没有任何关於巴西反应炉的近况，所以 光凭这样的野望就说他们一定会造出一个低功率SSN，我是觉得挺有趣的。 毕竟光潜艇的部分在几年间大小就膨胀了2倍多.. 另外巴西人可是自己有铀矿，自己有提炼科技，因此就算法国不提供核反应炉相关科技 他们也可以自己慢慢的往那边做的喔~ --

※ 发信站: 批踢踢实业坊(ptt.cc) ◆ From: 74.115.0.56