Nec hoc probatum esse videtur, quod sint de sua betitudine certe et secure, saltem, licet nos certissimi simus. 三个英译如下（第三个是估狗翻译）： 1. Again, it seems unproved that they, or at least that all of them, are certain or assured of their own blessedness, though we may be quite certain of it. 2. Nor does it seem proved that souls in purgatory, at least not all of them, are certain and assured of their own salvation, even if we ourselves may be entirely certain of it. 3. Nor does this appear to be proved, that they are certain and assured of their own salvation, or at least, though we may be quite certain of it. ------------------------- 按文意来说，应该是第2.的翻译比较符合， 就是「不是」所有在炼狱中的灵魂，都确定他们的救恩； 但拉丁文直译的3.，似乎没有否定词，而只有saltem， 所以1.的直译也可以说是直翻，但文意上变成「至少全部」， 就是"全部在炼狱中的灵魂，都确定他们的救恩"； 不过「至少-全部」这个组合就怪怪的， 是不是saltem/at least，本就有「不是全部」的意思呢？ -- 你们中间有人对他们说：「平平安安地去吧！愿你们穿得暖，吃得饱」， 却不给他们身体所需用的，这有甚麽益处呢？（雅2：16） --

※ 发信站: 批踢踢实业坊(ptt.cc), 来自: 112.105.154.122 ※ 文章网址: https://webptt.com/cn.aspx?n=bbs/Latina/M.1535419075.A.C20.html 感谢回应，不过多了omnes意思会不同吗？ https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/omnis#Latin 主要就是saltem会有否定义吗？ 我是想到像英文的seldom就自带否定义... 或者说，saltem https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/saltem "Adverb saltem (not comparable) 1.saved, reserved 2.at least 3.anyhow" 会有类似英文的seldom、a few的意思吗？ ※ 编辑: theologe (112.105.154.122), 09/01/2018 10:29:38 感谢提供工具网站，我再研究一下... ※ 编辑: theologe (112.105.154.122), 09/02/2018 18:32:33 "It serves to point out that which still remains or holds good, in spite of or by way of exception to something opposed to it; and accordingly is used (like certe, II.) as a restrictive particle, at least, at the least, at all events, anyhow." Nec hoc probatum esse videtur, quod sint de sua betitudine certe et secure, saltem, licet nos certissimi simus. Nor does this appear to be proved, that they are certain and assured of their own salvation, or at least, though we may be quite certain of it. 所以应该是符合 "I. Affirmatively (class.). A. With a statement of the opposite" 例句第一句： "si illud non licet, Saltem hoc licebit," 估狗翻译为（加","跟不加翻出来有差别耶，不过不加的翻译比较看得懂） "if that is not permitted to, at least this will be allowed" 这样Saltem是在修饰後面的对比子句(的动词?)。 回到 "Nec hoc probatum esse videtur, quod sint de sua betitudine certe et secure, saltem, licet nos certissimi simus." 因为之前的两个英译有点导向"at least"是对"they"的修饰，所以才搞不清； 若"at least"也是对後面对比子句"licet nos certissimi simus."(其动词)的修饰， 文意就比较清楚： 他们救恩的确定性并没有被证明， 但「至少」我们是确定的（对他们的救恩？还是对我们的救恩？）。 请问这样理解正确吗？ 主要问题是： saltem是修饰哪个子句（的动词?）？ 是"quod sint de sua betitudine certe et secure"， 还是"licet nos certissimi simus."？ ※ 编辑: theologe (112.105.154.122), 09/03/2018 13:55:29 ※ 编辑: theologe (112.105.154.122), 09/09/2018 10:23:21 有朋友提供一些说明，摘要我(Q)与他(A)的对答如下： A： 我看不出saltem为什麽有否定义，perseus上的古典作品里也没有. https://goo.gl/chjrB7 https://goo.gl/fiCvdD saltem有没有都没有什麽区别吧？ Nec hoc probatum esse videtur, quod sint de sua be(a)titudine certe et secure, licet nos certissimi simus. 意思没差吧。。 si illud non licet, hoc licebit 意思其实也没差... 只是一个语气的 强调而已； 「那个不行，这个可以」跟「那个不行，至少这个可以」； 表达的是同一件事，语气不同而已。 我还是倾向拿掉saltem，看看意思是什麽，再摆会去，看怎样不改变意思； 没有saltem那句话意思很清楚； Q： saltem/at least/wenigstens，在德译、英译都是修饰前一句-- [三种英译] Nor does it seem proved that souls in purgatory, at least not all of them, are certain and assured of their own salvation, even if we ourselves may be entirely certain of it. 我的中译： 「若非可证明他们至少并非全体对於救恩有确信，即便我们是完全确信的。」 Again, it seems unproved that they, or at least that all of them, are certain or assured of their own blessedness, though we may be quite certain of it. 我的中译： 「至少他们（炼狱中灵魂）全体对於救恩的确信，是未证明的；但我们却是确信。」 This, too, seems not to be proved, that they are all sure and confident of their salvation, though we may be quite sure of it. 英译的第三种是比较口语化的，就把at least拿掉了:p [德译] Offenbar ist auch dieses nicht erwiesen, daß sie - wenigstens nicht alle - ihrer Seligkeit sicher und gewiß sind, wenngleich wir ihrer völlig sicher sind. --------------------------------------------------- 而若「至少」是修饰後一个子句，反而比较简单理解： 「他们对於救恩的确信是没有证明的，但至少我们是确信的。」 所以我本来想说是不是也是修饰後一个...，因为中文比较没有那麽拗口； 不过德译、英译都是修饰前一句就是了； 所以不知道saltem的具体规则究竟是？ A： 你如果想归结语法规则，还是建议参照Perseus上的例句一个一个比对。 ※ 编辑: theologe (112.105.154.122), 09/11/2018 15:58:50