作者claus (La Jolla)
看板Lakers
标题Re: Putting Kobe in perspective (一个礼拜前的古文)
时间Mon Apr 2 15:01:38 2007
然後,理所当然的,这个敏感的议题当然招来很多评论。
後来作者又写了一篇专栏,算是上篇的後续
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hill/070330&sportCat=nba
A few of you didn't agree with my Kobe column
By Jemele Hill
Page 2
What is so fascinating about the stir created by my "Kobe is better than Michae
l Jordan" column -- which generated more than 2,000 e-mails -- is that a couple
months ago, I wrote a column on "The Hook Up" and no athlete generated more vi
triol than His Airness.
当初写「Kobe is better than Michael Jordan」,有2000多封EMAIL的回覆,最惊奇的地
方是几个月前我(原作者)写的另一篇报导「The Hook Up」然後没有任何球员制造议题的
能力能和大帝相比。(其实这段乱翻,因为我看不到The Hook Up在讲啥)
A taste:
"The
ultimate Hook Up of all time is Michael Jordan. Not even close. America fell in
love with him the moment word got out that he was cut from his basketball team
in high school. His story is the American Dream. His attempt at baseball, gamb
ling issues and marital problems did nothing to his Hook Up."
Disclosure: Dan is from Salt Lake City, but valid, valid points.
举例:
史上最受瞩目的球员当属MJ是也。根本没有竞争可言。他被他高中篮球队踢掉的那一刻他
就令全美着迷了。他的故事就是典型的美国梦。他短暂的棒球生涯,赌博议题和婚姻失败
都无法撼动对他的热爱。
附注:DAN(大概是寄EMAIL的读者)来自於盐湖城,但是非常中肯的论点。
More:
Joe, a North Carolinian, wrote: "The man gambled a good bit of his money away,
[allegedly] had a long-term affair with [had to be deleted for fear of a lawsui
t], ran the Wizards into the ground, single-handedly destroyed Kwame Brown, and
was overcompetitive to the point of violence. Despite all this, we love Michae
l Jordan. The man could get away with murder anywhere in North Carolina. I shou
ld know, I grew up in Durham."
Compare that to what reader Richard Kavalauskas wrote to me on Thursday, which
summed up the overall sentiment toward my Jordan-Kobe column: "You are sick. Th
e article you just wrote is blasphemy."
Based on the response, the only athlete who could possibly have generated such
heated emotion is O.J. Simpson.
Kobe certainly has his defenders, but it is amazing how many people were more t
han willing to use Kobe's personal life as ammunition in a Jordan-Kobe basketba
ll debate. People are aware of Jordan's personal lapses, but there is a state o
f denial there that is just startling.
更多:
一位来自於北卡的Joe写说「他赌输掉相当比例的财富,可靠消息说和某人有长期的婚外
情,把屋狮队搞的乱七八糟,亲手毁了囧丸,竞争慾望强烈到暴力的程度。尽管这些,
我们仍然爱死MJ。他可以在北卡任何地方犯下某杀案但仍然全身而退。我知道这些,因为
我是在 Durham长大的。」
根据这个回覆,能产生这种具争议的情感的球员大概只剩OJ了吧。
当然有替KB讲话的人,但是仍然可令人玩味的是仍有许多人利用KB私生活的部分来作为
KB MJ於篮球上的争论。人们都知道MJ私生活的污点,但是却都选择忽略这些污点。
Anyway, 75 percent of you disagreed with me, which is no surprise. But
the responses were so overwhelming, it was worthy of sharing. But a couple quic
k explainers first:
(1) I do not believe the NBA is better now than it was then. It's my fault for
not explaining this better. At least a third of you who e-mailed thought I was
on crack -- and seriously at least 400-500 e-mails had, "Are you on crack?" in
the subject line -- for even entertaining the possibility the NBA is a better p
roduct now.
No, it's not. That's not what I'm saying. I believe today's player is more athl
etic, stronger and has more raw ability than players in the '80s and early '90s
. Clearly those players in the Magic, Bird and Isiah era were more polished, to
ugher and had unbelievable basketball acumen. It was a better game because the
players were more skilled. Today, we see guys with extraordinary physical gifts
and no fundamentals. So, to sum up: Today's player has more talent, but yester
day's player was a better basketball player.
总之,有75%的读者不同意我,这结果也并非预料之外。但回应之多,多到值得和大家分
享。但是有些东西要先快速的解释。
1)我不相信NBA现在比以前好。我没有把他解释清楚。至少1/3的人写信说我是不是在吸
毒...至少400-500封email有实际写到「Are you on crack?」...因为我竟然会认为NBA现
在比以前好。
不,现在没有比以前好。那不是我想说的。我相信现今的球员运动能力较强,较为壮硕,
体能方面的能力比80/90初期的球员好。显然的球员如Magic, Bird, Isiah技巧较为纯熟
,对篮球的敏锐程度甚至到无法相信的地步。那时候的球赛比较有水准因为球员的技巧
比较纯熟。今天,我们看到的球员都是体能爆发力强但是毫无基本技巧軮言。总结,现在
的球员天赋及潜力比较大,但是以前的球员是比较好的篮球球员。
(2) That being said, there are teams in the league right now that were better t
han at least three of the teams Jordan beat in the Finals. The Mavericks, Suns
and Spurs are better than Clyde Drexler's Trail Blazers, Gary Payton's Sonics a
nd Charles Barkley's Suns. The coaches: Avery Johnson, Mike D'Antoni and Gregg
Popovich versus Rick Adelman, George Karl and Paul Westphal. Not even a debate
there. Drexler was horribly overrated -- a slasher, terrific shot-blocker and r
ebounder for a 6-foot-7 guy, but he was a subpar shooter and mediocre ballhandl
er. You play the who-would-you-rather-have game with the rosters and you would
favor most of the 2007 players. Nash or KJ? Duncan or Kemp? Stoudemire or Kemp?
Shawn Marion or Buck Williams? The only untouchables are Payton and Barkley. A
nd by the way, I'm not entirely convinced Jordan's Bulls could have beaten the
Rockets in '94 or '95 when Hakeem Olajuwon was at the height of his filthiness
(I mean that in a good way).
说了这麽多,现今联盟里至少有三支球队比当初MJ在冠军赛击败的球队还有强。MAV,PHX
,和SAS都比当初滑翔人的PR,手套的SEA和巴爷的PHX来的强。教练方面,Johnson,
D'Antoni, Popovich vs Adelman, Karl, Westphal. 这点连争都不用争了。Drexler极度
的被高估成一个破坏能力强,火锅能力和篮板能力优秀的6尺7寸球员,但他是一个平均水
准的射手,处理球的能力也普普。如果你玩「你会选谁」的游戏的话,2007年的球员入
选的会比较多。Nash还是KJ?TD或Kemp? Stoudemire或Kemp? Marion 或 Williams? 以前
球员无法被取代的只有手套和巴爷。另外,我现在还没完全被说服如果MJ领军的公牛是否
可以击败94 95年的火箭。当时欧拉珠旺的恶心程度(正面的恶心程度XD)正达到顶尖。
(3) I'm not totally certifiable. I know T-Mac or Vince Carter couldn't stop an
8-year-old on a PAL team. Dwyane Wade's defense also is suspect. My argument wa
sn't about their defense, but their offense. The evolution of size and skill fr
om the '80s until now is obvious. This is a league filled with very tall, very
big, athletic people who can shoot and do ridiculously dumb things above the ri
m. When Jordan played, some could match his athleticism, but not many. These da
ys, 40-inch verticals are a dime a dozen. Jordan's killer instinct will always
set him apart, but if he played today, his athleticism would not be the disting
uishing factor it was before. I concede, though, he would have nearly 40 a game
.
我知道我讲的也不全然都一定是对的。我知道TMAC或是VC无法阻挡一个PAL team的8岁小
孩(PAL team是啥我也不知道)。D-Wade的防守也有待进步。但是我所讲的不是防守,
而是进攻。80年到现在球员身材和技术的演变是很明显的。现今联盟充斥着又高又大运动
能力极佳的球员,而且能外线投篮或是在篮框上做出极为夸张的动作。MJ的年代,少部分
球员的运动能力可以和他媲美,但是少数,反观现在,垂直起跳40寸满街都是。MJ的杀手
本能会永远和其他球员做出程度上的区隔,但是如果他是在现在打球的话,他的运动能力
就不会像当初一样扮演那麽关键的角色。但我仍然认为他可以平均一场40分。
(4) I'll say it again: Kobe is just as good or better than MJ on the defensive
end. Jordan was an unbelievable defender, but some of you seemed to forget he w
as playing alongside a defender who was just as capable -- Scottie Pippen. If y
ou think that didn't help Jordan beef up his defensive stats, you are delusiona
l. The reason I give Kobe even more credit is (A) he's the only player in the l
eague even remotely interested in being a good defender and (B) he's been named
to the All-Defensive first team four times during an age when every rule is ge
ared to create more offense. Will Kobe ever win Defensive Player of the Year? P
robably not. But then again, he probably won't win a lot of the awards Jordan r
eceived because people really, really hate Kobe. The wall of hate that Kobe fac
es is why he remains underappreciated. No matter how much surgery he performs o
n his image, most people always will view him as an egotistical ball hog who go
t away with a major sexual assault even though he was never convicted. Hey, peo
ple just prefer to show blind loyalty to a player some people believe is a dege
nerate, philandering gambler whose teammates would have killed him if they didn
't fear prison.
4) 我再说一次。KB的防守能力和MJ相当,甚至更好。MJ的防守能力相当的好,但是少部
分人选择忽略他和另一个伟大的防守者一起合作...Pippen. 如果你认为那对MJ的防守数
据没有帮助的话,你一定在幻想。我认为KB比较好的原因是(A)他是现在联盟里唯一对
「当个成功的防守者」有任何兴趣可言。(B)他所处在的年代是一个所有规则都被更改
成要制造更多进攻更多分数的环境,但是他仍然入选防守第一队4次。KB是否会赢得一次
最佳防守球员?大概不会。但是,同样的他大概不会赢得许多MJ曾经赢过的奖项因为太多
人讨厌,并且发自内心的讨厌KB。KB所面对的憎恨之墙是他现在仍然没有获得应有的待
遇的主要原因。不管他如何的改善他的形象,绝大多数的人仍然会把他视为一位极度黏球
并且侥幸躲过重度性侵害(即便他连定罪都不曾有)的人。人们选择展现盲目的忠诚并
崇拜一位人格一样有缺陷并且曾经劈腿搞婚外情的赌徒,一位如果不畏惧坐牢的话队友
会抢着谋杀的球员。
(5) And yes, I still believe Kobe is a better player. This is an eyeball argume
nt. Kobe will never be the best player who played the game. That achievement be
longs to MJ alone. He'll never impact the world the way MJ did. But from a skil
l perspective, Kobe has MJ beat.
是的,我仍然相信KB是比较优秀的球员。这是一个很精细的评语。KB不会是最成功的球员
,MJ才是。他所造成的影响也不会超越MJ。但是从球技方面而言,KB超越了MJ。
Now, a few e-mails:
Matthew Ivaliotes wrote: "Kobe Bryant is indeed comparable to a retired player.
Dominique Wilkins. Both players were good enough to draw glory to themselves,
alienating too many teammates, and selfish enough to make all but certain that
they can't climb the mountain. Without Shaquille O'Neal, you never would have h
ad the thought hit your head that Kobe Bryant is even an all time top-five play
er, much less No. 1."
Everybody needs help, even the great ones. How many titles did Jordan win witho
ut Pippen? I'll eat complete crow about this argument if Kobe gets a legitimate
sidekick and doesn't do anything. So talk to me when his sidekick isn't Smush
Parker.
现在,一些emails
Matthew Ivaliotes写说:「KB的确足够和一位已经退休的球员相比。D-Wilkins。他们都是
好到足够把镁光灯聚於一身,并且分化队友,自私到无法完成大业。没有SHAQ的话,KB
是史上前五球员的想法连产生都不会产生,更甭论史上最优秀。」
所有人都需要帮忙,伟大的球员也是。MJ在没有Pippen的帮忙赢得了几个冠军戒指?如
果KB有搬的上台面的助手但是却仍毫无成就的话,我会撤回我自己的论点。所以当他KB
的左右手不是Smush Parker的时候再来和我讨论这个议题。
From Steve Madison: Subject line: WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING?
"There is no way Kobe is/was better than Jordan. Jordan played in an era of Mag
ic, Larry, Karl, Charles, etc. Jordan played in an era of team basketball and t
hat's why he has six rings to Kobe's three. Better teammate, better defender an
d better player overall. Jordan could have put up 60 a night if he wanted to. H
ere's my list:
Better defender: Jordan
Better shooter: Jordan
Better passer: Jordan
Better teammate: Jordan
Better leader: Jordan
Better rapist: Kobe
The fact that the sexual-assault charge against Kobe was dropped was often over
looked by e-mailers.
Steve Madision,主题:你在吸啥毒 写道:「
KB不可能是/曾经是比MJ还优秀的球员。MJ是在Magic, Larry. Karl, Charles的等球员的
年代打球的。他是在一个团队篮球的年代打球的,所以他有6枚戒指,相较於KB的3枚。
他是较好的队友,较好的防守者,整体而言较好的球员。只要MJ愿意,他一晚都可以得60
分。以下是我的分析表。
较优秀的防守者:MJ
较优秀的射手:MJ
较优秀的传球者:MJ
较优秀的队友:MJ
要优秀的领导者:MJ
要优秀的强暴犯:KB
性侵害的控诉被撤销的事实时常被读者所忽略。
And finally, my favorite e-mail, from Amsterdam:
"Hello, I'm Sharone Wright, a former top-six pick in the NBA. I was around Kobe
my first and second year with the 76ers (Bryant worked out with the 76ers when
he was in high school). Kobe would be the first to be at practice and he would
be the last to leave. You want to talk about a will to win? This kid was amazi
ng. He has a mad streak only the good ones have. When he wants to stop you, he
will. When he wants 50, he'll give you 50. Simple as that. "I played a lot of g
ames against Jordan, and truthfully Michael was the greatest I've ever seen, bu
t Kobe has everything and even more to his game. The comparisons are so equal.
So many critics let their displeasure for Kobe in his personal life blind them
when it comes to his game and his place as one of the top-three players of all
time. Kobe should be going on his fourth MVP, but they are so blinded by what t
heir perception of Kobe is. Say what you want, but poll 20 NBA players right no
w, the ones that don't hold a grudge against Kobe, and they will tell you that
it isn't even close to him and another player in the league. That's real talk f
or you."
最後,来自阿母斯特丹,我最喜欢的email
「你好,我是Sharone Wright,曾经以第六顺位选秀进入NBA。
(编按:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wrighsh01.html)
我在76人的前两年曾和KB一起打球。(当时KB在高中的时候有和76人一起练球)KB会是第
一个来练习的,并且是最後离开的。要来讨论球胜的意志?这小子太不可思议了。当他要
得50分的时候,他会给你50分。这麽简单。我曾对到MJ许多次,说实话MJ是我所见到最伟
大的。但是MJ有的KB都有,甚至更多。他们旗鼓相当。许多评论家容许他们对KB私生活
的厌恶影响到他们对KB的球技和他足够名列史上前三伟大球员之列的评论。KB应该於本季
得到他第四个MVP,但是他们被他们自己的偏见所盲目了。说你们想说的,但是随便对20
为球员做调查(没有对KB有私人怨恨的),他们会告诉你没有任何人球技有办法攀上KB的
一点边。这才是事实。
--
※ 发信站: 批踢踢实业坊(ptt.cc)
◆ From: 140.112.59.21
1F:推 DariusKid:感谢翻译 04/02 15:42
2F:推 Cabal3:感谢翻译~~ 看的好心酸阿... 04/02 15:53
3F:推 LOJ:哀 满腹杂陈用力推! 04/02 15:57
4F:推 OHYOUGOD:没有任何人球技有办法攀上KB的一点边。这才是事实。 04/02 16:00
5F:推 OHYOUGOD:其实只要光看MJ在巫师队也没法帮忙拉上季後赛就知道啦... 04/02 16:02
6F:→ OHYOUGOD:不过MJ当时已经老了.... 04/02 16:03
7F:推 zzman01:如果球评容许私心蒙蔽专业,只能说他们也是人吗....? 04/02 16:01
8F:→ tco:楼上的意思是......???? 04/02 16:12
9F:推 zzman01:呃,我的意思是就连应该就专业论专业的球评也会受私心好恶 04/02 16:14
10F:→ zzman01:而影响了他们对KB和MJ的差别评价吧 04/02 16:19
11F:推 howdz:来自阿母斯特丹,我最喜欢的email~~~~~ T_T 04/02 17:41
12F:推 Maxslack:From Steve Madison: Subject line: WHAT ARE YOU SMOKIN 04/02 18:11
13F:→ Maxslack:这个人的意见好像我常常再NBA跟NBAEZ看到耶XD 04/02 18:12
14F:→ Maxslack:FWD的信众?? 04/02 18:12
15F:推 hbryant:看到最後一封忍不住想转.....^^thx 04/02 18:26
16F:推 funwing:性侵害的控诉被撤销的事实时常被读者所忽略..心酸推 04/02 18:30
17F:推 young23:强烈建议本篇转至NBA版 04/02 18:55
18F:推 backid:又有小人想要引战了吗 04/02 19:12
19F:推 van2003:千万不要转阿,看看讨论就好,转了三天三夜也战不玩 04/02 19:22
20F:推 zzman01:强烈建议勿转! 转了给小白机会引战 04/02 19:40
21F:→ PURELOVEGAE:有些部分说的挺不错的啊...或许可以转一下 NBA 板让其 04/02 19:47
22F:→ PURELOVEGAE:他人对 Kobe 的误会不要那麽深... 04/02 19:47
23F:推 Carmelo3:嘘 young23 想引战 04/02 20:18
24F:推 van2003:别傻了,这里面很多都是个人观感,更何况给KOBE的评价也不是 04/02 20:18
25F:→ van2003:ㄧ个人可以决定,P大转了对湖人迷的战文只有更多,对KOBE误뜠 04/02 20:19
26F:→ van2003:会也只有更深,光讲防守那段就不知会引起多少争论了 04/02 20:22
27F:推 Crazying:Wright 看起来是 Kobe 的球迷 XD 04/02 21:35
28F:推 ted0217:嘘 young23 ...当真莫名奇妙 04/02 23:34
29F:推 u2gogowin:别转..一定必战=.= 04/02 23:47
30F:推 dpogcnn:有种自己转阿 建议干嘛 这里给你管怎麽样? 04/03 00:27