: Not necessarily do I refer to religious manipulation because I : think that Cultural Morality is also very oppressive. A lot of Taiwanese : are very hard headed about various things. Today when I was getting : out of my Uni some woman gave me this pamphlet that was saying how : dangerous Tibetan Buddhism is and how "immoral" they were for worshipping : sex. I personally think there is nothing wrong with worshipping sex : but a lot of Taiwanese (females) think that "lust" is immoral, because it's : a cultural value. Women are always being pressured by other women to : reject sexual desire etc. It's also society thing, but the level of : severity on how strongly people insist on a particular value depends : on the Culture. Taiwanese people in majority don't believe : in religion or at least they aren't very zealous about the morals : taught by their religion, so no I am not merely referring to religious : values. I think sex is ok, and is necessary for human survival. Also, no need to deny it, coz we all have lust, even woman do. I agree with you that Traditional Taiwanese values are oppressing woman and put guilt on them when they admit their sexual desire or needs. This is very unfair and oppresive while men can act promiscuously without guilt. However, I don't see the necessity of worshiping it. If it comes naturally with love it's fine. If we talk about sex all the time and worship it as top priority in our life, then it's a bit strange. It's like when we worship "air" or "shit" or "anal" or "asshole" that already exsists without denial. It just doesn't sound natural or constructive. I believe we human have other subjects more worthy to pursue. : these believers disagree with one another because they have different : personal standards and personal values/beliefs. If so, why even bother to : follow an archaic "universal morality" or try to interpret a historic : scripture to fit their current values if what they follow is actually : their personal belief? Do we really need to define our personal belief As I pointed out, some very principle moral standards are intrinsic and universal. (that's my belief, I won't argue or try to pursuade you) for example, love, compassion, sympathy, or as I pointed out "己所不欲，勿施於人" by, well, Confucious. Other than that, morality develops into branches and details. As for those details, definitely there's space for arguements, and we should allow that. However, some very premise and foundamental belief I won't let go, and I believe it's universal, applicable to all culture among human. : through ancient scripture and force others to completely agree with us : or understand us? Believers who aren't blind already see what they want : to see but what they want to see originated from their personal preference : and personal values, not the actual "univeral morality" thing. : Some modern Christians have great philosophies, : but those are always the ones who follow their own personal beliefs and : not what someone else taught them. Thus, values are discovered and : adopted by oneself, they are personal and therefore a set moral value : is now no longer needed and only limiting. It is better to say those : moral concepts are there for "reference" but not as an absolute truth. Well, that's why I learn from those religious institutions and from you also! :D I just don't think I am smart or creative enough, so I need to learn something. Why can't believers join religious institutions to learn more and explore their values while maintaining independent thinking? It does make sense. They aren't idiots. Even the smartest professor join religious institution to get some insights + inspirations. Having personal values while emerging into a set of religious values just doesn't contradict. Another thing I want to mention is that, I cannot explain or describe the absolute truth, because when it is described or explained, it does lost it's original beauty. It's something that we human cannot explain, but can only get close to. (It's ok if you don't agree and believe there's no absolute truth) : : After struggling for thousands of years from mere survival : : to evolve into a more formal society, : : morality seemingly exceeds it's "sophisticated Ape" nature. : : The frontal cortex maturely developed, and our brain began to think about : : metaphysical concepts, beyond mere survival. : : Human evolution should be pushed forward, not backwardly tracing to : : the ancient hunter-gatherer society. The babarian nature does not make us : : any good. It is only good for ONESELF. : I agree with this, I think that human values should evolve and are : evolving. Barbarians aren't necessarily backwards but their : basic problem is the same with blind believers--they don't think much : about their personal values. : I also believe that it is precisely because humans have the ability : to override their DNA survival instincts, it is time that we can : follow our personal standards now. The concept of morality is no longer : needed, what we humans should do is follow our inner values and don't : try forcing them onto others or arguing with others that oneself is : correct. People don't change. You can't change people--they can only : change themselves. So why bother preaching absolutism? We judge based on our : personal moral beliefs and not a set moral belief, : so in essence there should not be a set moral belief to mislead people : into thinking those are absolute and inflexible. Most people end up : agreeing along the same line anyway, but they don't agree on everything : to the exact same extent. However, it is always nice to see different : views or express our own thoughts if we like sharing them. : Of course, I don't think that all religious moral values are wrong or : mistaken or bad or whatever. I agree with some Buddhism views even : though at the same time I don't REALLY agree because my personal : values contradict with Buddhism values. : I find many values reasonable. I just deny the origin and the absolute : truth those religions claim their values to have. : Since I am 1% agnostic, I don't deny the existence of a god. : I also think that people are free to believe and feel spiritually : connected to their god, I think that religion has a certain amount of : positive impact on the society, that some values makes the world a more : tolerant place to live in. However, I think that an individual him/herself : is the ultimate key, and so should we encourage finding one's own : personal values instead of insisting that one value is absolute? : If we insist an absolute value, and absolute right and wrong, : that is the system of morality. : I thus question if we need to continue enforcing the concept of morality : or strive to develop a way to help people discover their inner values. : People already by default have their own inner values, which is why they : are now able to choose what they want to believe in, and if their : beliefs resonate with a group of people they often join that group. : If so, then the concept of absolute morality is now obsolete and actually : a step backwards in the development of human society. Times are changing, : and continual obstinance on archaic values will only create : meaningless conflicts out of intolerance. There will be people who suffer : because they are taught something they don't agree with and they are : confused eternally unless they overcome the system. : As for Hitler, Mao, and all those people...well, I'll talk about them : some other day. They are more difficult to discuss about and : today I'm not in the mood to talk about them. They're intolerant and since : humans are programmed to recognize what is best for their survival, the : legacy of those mass murderers are not passed down. What is passed down : is always something that would improve the general survival, and if a : general survival chance is increased, that means that the personal survival : chance is increased. : On the matter of guilt, I think guilt is the partial result of a : forced morality teaching. Is it really wrong? Sometimes it isn't : in a different system of moral teachings. : Let's say Person A is brough up under moral system A, and person B is : brought up under Moral System B. Moral System B does not consider action X : to be wrong, but Moral System A views action X as immoral. : Therefore, Person A will feel guilt when A does X, but Person B will not : feel guilt if B does the exact same thing. : However, the guilt A feels is real, even though B might feel nothing. Let's : just say A wants to do X but feels guilty doing X. Maybe action X really : isn't harmful but Moral System A views it so. -- 莫听穿林打叶声，何妨吟啸且徐行。 竹杖芒鞋轻胜马，谁怕?一蓑烟雨任平生。 料峭春寒吹酒醒，微冷，山头斜照却相迎。 回首向来萧瑟处，归去，也无风雨也无晴。 --

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