作者mulkcs (mulkcs)
看板Cognitive
标题[讨论] fMRI的内马尔问题?
时间Mon Aug 4 17:32:16 2014
Functional Neuroimaging’s Neymar Problem
As a “World Cup tie in post” this one’s a bit late, but here’s a story
that’s been getting a lot of attention: According to scientists, Neymar uses
instinct and not his brain when playing football
Yes, if you believe the headlines, research has shown that legendary
Brazilian forward Neymar da Silva Santos is so good, he can play with his
brain switched off.
What’s the reality? The research in question used fMRI and it was published
in Frontiers in Human Neurosciences: Efficient foot motor control by Neymar’
s brain, by Eiichi Naito and Satoshi Hirose. The free full text is here.
Anyway, the study didn’t quite find Neymar to be some kind of brainless
soccer zombie, but the results were remarkable nonetheless. Naito and Hirose
write:
We scanned Neymar’s brain activity while he rotated his right ankle. We also
scanned three other professional footballers, two top swimmers, and one
amateur footballer, all of whom performed the identical task.
We found activations in the left foot motor cortex regions during the foot
movements in all participants. However, the size and intensity of [foot motor
cortical] activity was smaller in the four professional footballers than in
the three other participants, and Neymar’s activity was smallest of all.
In other words, while performing a football-related motor task (ankle
rotation), the pro footballers showed less neural activity than other
athletes. And Neymar, one of the best players in the world, showed the least
brain activity.
This study was just about one very simple movement – so the headlines
claiming that Neymar uses less brainpower to play football were extrapolating
wildly. There’s more to soccer than twitching your ankle. Nonetheless, the
basic paradox remains – we see less brain activity in people with more
expertise.
This is not a new discovery, but Naito and Hirose provide a great
illustration of the phenomenon, which one might call the Neymar Effect.
For me, the Neymar Effect is a deeply disturbing one, because it seems to
undermine the logic of many fMRI studies. Suppose you scan some patients with
a disorder, and some healthy people, performing some task. You find that on
average the patients show reduced activity in a certain area, compared to the
controls. What does that mean?
The intuitive interpretation is that less activity in a brain region means
less engagement of that brain region’s function. So if the region’s
function is ‘memory’, say, it would be natural to read reduced activity as
less remembering. The results mean that the patients are not remembering as
well as the controls are.
In other words, it is natural (and very common) to start from neural activity
and draw conclusions about psychological processes. A swathe of the fMRI
literature is based on this approach. But the Neymar Problem is that any
given dampening (or excess) of activity could just as easily reflect more
(less) efficient processing, rather than less (more) processing per se. So
the inference from activity to psychology is invalid.
This is a separate issue from the fallacy of reverse inference, which
concerns how we ascribe ‘functions’ to brain regions. The Neymar Effect
means that even if our assumptions about the localization of function are
unerring, we still might go astray when it comes to interpreting quantitative
differences in activity.
--
原文:
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/neuroskeptic/2014/07/31/neymar-zombie-footballer/
论文
http://journal.frontiersin.org/Journal/10.3389/fnhum.2014.00594/full
文章大意是说有科学家找内马尔来做动右脚踝的fMRI study.
做了七个人,四个是专业足球员,三个是一般人。
四个足球员的左侧运动皮质反应比三个一般人来的低,
又以内马尔的最低。
这和一般fMRI常用的逻辑不同,一般我们会认为活化比较多,
表示运用此资源比较多,表示此功能比较出色。
但这研究和这想法不同。
这篇文章的作者阐述这样的现象。
但我自己认为有做过fMRI的人都很常碰到一个问题,
行为表现好的,有时候反而是脑区反应比较低的。
这个在解释上,目前学界是朝向compensate,补偿效应来解释。
因为不专业的人需要活化更多相关脑区来辅助完成这个工作。
这也很合理,毕竟专家或许就表示用更少资源做一样的事情,也就是更有效率的意思。
但是这在fMRI上,就造成困扰,到底是否反应越高越好呢?
所以我会倾向看fMRI不要只看大脑图就好,可能要搭配其他资料一起看。
--
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※ 文章网址: http://webptt.com/cn.aspx?n=bbs/Cognitive/M.1407144738.A.E07.html
1F:推 vsdvd:这个系列其实还有测哈维和伊涅斯塔 XD 08/04 19:14
2F:→ vsdvd:但是另一个方面来看 足球比赛中还有很多比动脚裸更重要的事 08/04 19:15
3F:→ vsdvd:自己的 动作 走位 队友的位置 对手的位置 08/04 19:17
4F:→ vsdvd:所以花越少资源在单纯的身体动作上 在场上越能顾全大局 08/04 19:18
5F:→ vsdvd:这大概就是球评常说的:踢球要带上脑袋的意思 XD 08/04 19:19
6F:→ vsdvd:所以如果是dual task 我想内马尔在另一个作业上的反应 08/04 19:21
7F:→ vsdvd:就会比其他人高了 这样的话就回到了反应越高越好的模式了 08/04 19:21
8F:→ vsdvd:例如一边动脚裸 一边做快速判断的作业 我猜内马尔的RT会最快 08/04 19:29
9F:→ mulkcs:原来还有其他系列.... 08/04 20:16
10F:推 vsdvd:没错 像哈维就是空间认识能力好 所以不管资料是长什麽样子 08/04 21:47
11F:→ vsdvd:也许重点还是到底要验证什麽假设和怎麽决定测量哪个部位吧? 08/04 21:49
12F:推 bisconect: 08/05 02:52
13F:推 ksm: 有趣 09/09 17:14