※ [本文转录自 Gossiping 看板 #1OKJCsLB ] 作者: joe6304105 (老衲) 看板: Gossiping 标题: [爆卦] 澳洲金融时报专访林昶佐 时间: Wed Dec 14 19:55:27 2016 原文网址(需有会员才可观看完整内容) http://www.afr.com/news/world/asia/softtalking-hard-rocker-freddy-lim-shakes-up-taiwanese-politics-20161206-gt5fzi http://0rz.tw/Ewvio Freddy Lim, soft-talking hard rocker, shakes up Taiwanese politics I am struggling to hear Freddy Lim above the sizzling teppanyaki grill of the neighbourhood restaurant he has been coming to since he was a child. 这天我与林昶佐约在他家附近的铁板烧店访问他 This would be entirely unremarkable except that Lim, who was elected to Taiwan's parliament earlier this year, is also a rock star. He is the lead singer for Chthonic, one of Taiwan's most famous extreme metal bands – think Black Sabbath not Guns N' Roses – and has been screaming out lyrics to fans around the world for the past two decades. 今年台湾的例行选举中诞生了一个特别的政治人物，他原本是台湾极端金属乐团 闪灵的主唱，用嘶吼的方式巡回世界二十个年头。 But here he is sitting across the table, his long hair scraped back into a neat ponytail, answering my questions thoughtfully and quietly. 林坐在我的对面，绑着马尾若有所思静静回答我的问题 The only hint of the head-banging front man, who named himself after Freddy Krueger – the gruesome-looking serial killer from the Nightmare on Elm Street film series – is the elaborate tattoo crawling its way up his forearm before disappearing underneath a well-ironed denim blue shirt. FREDDY这个名字来自於半夜鬼上床这部电影。 Lim is explaining that he set up the New Power Party (NPP) after a group of students occupied parliament for three weeks in 2014 to protest against a trade deal with China, in what became known as the Sunflower Movement. 林聊到在太阳花运动之後，时代力量政党是如何成立的。 "Many of the young activists were Chthonic fans and I became one of the regular speakers during the protests," Lim says, adding demand for entertainment was particularly strong around midnight, when the student leaders worried people would go home to sleep. 林： ＂许多年轻的抗议者也同时是闪灵的乐迷，所以我成为了这些人的发声管道之一， 当时有许多学生领袖担心当活动结束之後，这股年轻潮流的力量将随之而逝＂ "I encouraged them to organise a new political party but I realised they weren't ready. Some hadn't finished military service. Others were planning to study abroad. It was difficult to convince people to set up a party if I wasn't personally involved." ＂於是我鼓励他们组成新的政党，但因为他们太年轻，有些人尚未服役， 也有人计画继续念书深造，所以如果我自己不参与的话是很难说服人一起组党。＂ Controversial on the mainland 中国大陆的争议 We are at a small restaurant in Lim's electorate, just a walk from Taiwan's parliament, the Legislative Yuan. The restaurant is filled with people, most of them choosing to sit at the two counters surrounding the teppanyaki grills, but we have opted for a table off to the side. 这段就在讲这间铁板烧人很多 Small plates of steamed green vegetables and sprouts arrive along with a dish of stir-fried beef and onion drowned in a brown, salty sauce. 这间铁板烧牛肉好吃 Lim is not your average hard rocker. The 40-year-old grew up in Taipei – his dad owns a trading company and his mum was an accountant – and he swims and watches baseball in his spare time. He is lean and fit and looks young enough to be one of the student leaders he is hoping to inspire. 林不是你刻板印象中的摇滚明星，他是个40岁的台北人，爸爸是贸易商，妈妈是会计师 喜欢看职棒，因为勤於健身的关系外表看起来就像那些学生领袖一般年轻。 In January's election, the NPP won five out of the 113 seats up for grabs in Taiwan's Legislative Yuan, a better-than-expected result for the fledgling party, which has emerged as a third political force. The result was largely due to Lim's celebrity appeal and his ability to tap Chthonic's fan base, as well as student activist networks. The NPP is aligned with President Tsai Ing-wen's Democratic Progressive Party (DPP) but pushes harder on issues such as Taiwan independence and Tibetan refugees, which has made Lim a highly controversial figure on the mainland. 在今年一月的选举当中，时代力量赢得了五席的国会议员位置，让时代跃身为 国会第三大党，林的明星光环与学生运动的推波助澜下造就了这个成果， 时代力量在选举中与民进党合作成同一战线，而且因为支持台湾独立、西藏议题 也让林成为中国大陆高度警戒的对象。 Lim jumps up to serve us some boiled rice and hot clear soup from the nearby station as the waiter, with a pointed look at me, checks whether we really do want the dishes spicy. Lim says he hasn't been to China since before 2003, when he co-organised a Free Tibet Concert in Taipei with American hip-hop group the Beastie Boys. And just last month, he was denied a visa for Hong Kong, where he was going to watch a pop concert. 林表示他自从2003年举办西藏独立自由音乐会并邀请美国嘻哈团体野兽男孩後 就无法进入中国，而且上个月也发现被香港官方拒发签证入境。 "Taiwan is independent in all senses of the word," he says, as steam from the soup station wafts over the table. "But this is not normal independence because we are not able to participate in any international organisations." 林表示 ＂台湾就是个独立自主的国家，虽然我们被禁止参与许多国际组织＂ Australia, like most countries, has not officially recognised Taiwan since the early 1970s and has a representative office rather than an embassy in Taipei. That's because Beijing still regards the self-governed island of more than 23 million people as a renegade province that will return to the fold some day. Very few countries are prepared to upset the world's second-biggest economy by challenging its position. 澳洲就像大多数国家一样，从１９７０年代开始就不承认台湾是个国家，在台北 派驻的是代表处而不是大使馆，这是因为北京方面仍然将台湾当作叛逃的一省 并计画有一天能收复台湾。 而且很少国家愿意挑战这个全球第二经济体的力量。 Our lunch takes place the week before Donald Trump controversially broke with protocol to accept a congratulatory phone call from the Taiwanese leader, the first US president or president-elect to do so since at least 1979. 我们的午餐访谈就在蔡英文总统打电话祝贺川普当选的前一周，这是1979台美断交後 首次由美国总统与台湾总统直接进行的对话。 Lim is clearly reluctant to embrace Trump, as the pair occupy opposite ends of the political spectrum. But he is diplomatic, arguing it will take time to understand what a Trump presidency means for Taiwan. 虽然林不太认同川普的某些政治光谱，由於处於外交委员会的一员，他认为需要 一些时间才能了解川普对台湾未来真正的影响。 "I hope that Donald Trump can take an approach that can be beneficial to both countries. So far, it is hard to tell." 林表示： ＂我希望川普能为我们双方带来有利的合作交流，到目前很难说未来会怎样＂ Taiwan, which is locked out of the United Nations and other international organisations on the insistence of China, needs all the friends it can get. 因为中国的压力，台湾是个被拒绝於联合国门外以及许多国际组织的边缘国家ＱＱ 台湾需要结交更多的盟友。 "We are clearly an independent country because we don't pay taxes to China and we have our own parliament and military," says Lim. 林说： ＂台湾是个独立自主的国家，我们不用缴税给中国政府，而且拥有自己的议会与军队＂ But he believes publicly declaring Taiwan independent does not really achieve much. 但林也认为目前很难真正去声明台湾是个独立的国家 "It doesn't make the global village recognise you as an independent country." ＂目前世界各国仍然不认为台湾是个国家＂ within China and that Taipei should not engage in "dollar diplomacy" by providing small countries with investment and aid in return for official status. 台湾不应该继续撒钱从事金钱外交援助一些小国以换取他们的官方认同 "I believe there will be some big changes in the next 10 to 20 years, and there will possibly be democratisation in China. By that point there will be a chance for us to equally participate in the international community." 林： ＂我相信未来１０几２０年会有很大的转变，其中一个就是中国民主化的可能性， 那时台湾会有一个机会真正的参与国际社会＂ That's not to say Lim has become complacent. 我并不会认为林太过於乐观 On the contrary, he has been doing his best to shake up the political establishment since entering parliament in February. 相对的，他在今年二月进入国会工作後就努力的进行政治工作。 Dangerous consensus 危险的９２共识 He has set up a Tibetan caucus in parliament to argue for better treatment of refugees and has invited the Dalai Lama to visit Taiwan when his schedule permits. He is pushing for human rights to be on the table in any future discussions with China over trade and investment agreements and he is the judges in a competition for a new flag and song for the Taiwanese Olympic team at the 2020 Tokyo Games. 林在国会中设立了一个西藏委员会，着力於援助西藏受难者以及邀请达赖喇嘛会晤台湾 ，他也正在推动各种人权议题以利将来能与中国在经贸谈判时能搬上桌当作条件 同时策画２０２０东京奥运时可以使用台湾自己的旗帜以及国歌。 The existing flag displays the Olympic rings together with the emblem of the Kuomintang political party (KMT), which has ruled the island for all but nine years since Chiang Kai-shek's nationalist forces fled there in 1949 after being defeated by the Communist Party on the mainland. 自从蒋开穴战败逃到台湾後， 现在的台湾体育队在奥运会上都被迫使用国民党的党旗与五环结合的畸形旗帜 "It's not normal to have a party's logo on your national team's flag," says Lim. 林： ＂使用政党的党旗当作国家队的旗帜是很不正常的一件事＂ Before Tsai's win, the KMT had been pursuing closer ties with Beijing under the so-called 1992 consensus – a loose political agreement by which both sides agreed there was One China but interpreted that differently. So far, Tsai has refused to sign up to this agreement, angering Beijing, which has broken off most channels of communication. 在蔡总统当选之前，国民党用＂９２共识＂来当作与北京更紧密连接的政策 ９２共识是一个很模糊的政治协议，内容是＂一个中国，但各自表述＂ 目前蔡英文总统拒绝延续这个共识这使得北京方面气到弹出来并断绝许多沟通渠道。 Lim says the 1992 consensus is a "myth". 林昶佐认为９２共识是个虚构的口号 "I think it is dangerous to rely on this consensus because it is like a blank cheque. Everyone interprets it differently and it is dangerous if China tries to interpret it in their own way." 林： ＂我认为去依赖这种像空头支票的共识是非常危险的，这种双方可以有不同解释 的协议会让中国用自己方式去片面阐述台湾的立场。＂ All of these opinions, which would infuriate China's Communist Party leaders, are conveyed in a measured, considered way. There are no wild hand gestures or raised voice – even when battling the grill's sizzle. But this is an emotional issue for Lim and one, he explains, that drove him to form an extreme metal band while at university. 不管怎麽想，这些观点都会激怒共产党高层，林虽然用冷静的语气传达，但我 仍然能感受到他强烈的情感，也是这样的情感让他组了一个极端金属乐团。 "Back in the '80s before martial law was lifted, we were educated by the KMT textbooks and all other books were banned at that time," he says. 他表示： ＂在８０年代，解严之前，台湾人只能接受国民党强迫他们学习的教科书 而其他的书大部分都是被禁止的＂ "They tried to educate us that we were pure Chinese but then [when the ban was lifted] we learned about the history of our families and we realised we had nothing to do with over there. ＂国民党那时强迫教导我们自己是中国人，而当解严之後，学习到真正的历史， 我们才了解我们的无能为力＂ "When I traced back my family tree, I discovered my aboriginal ancestors. But I had never been taught about that at school. To consider ourselves mainland Chinese was just fantasy." ＂当我开始找寻我的家族故事时，我才发现我祖先在这块土地上生活的痕迹，但是这在学校 是被禁止教授的内容，学校叫我们认同自己是中国大陆子民的那些屁话只是幻想＂ We have both stopped eating by this stage and Lim is sitting back in his chair, taking long pauses to "collect my thoughts". 我们同时停下筷子并整理了一下思绪 "The government stole our history, stole our life story. I felt this anger that had to be expressed at a different level … through music." 林： ＂国民党政府偷走了我们的历史，偷走了属於我们的人生故事，我对此感到 十分愤怒，因此将这股情绪诉诸於音乐之中＂ So Lim set up Chthonic, a band which when it started in 1995 would have been described as death metal, a form of music where lyrics are screamed or roared and the subject matter of songs can be very dark. 於是林在１９９５组成了闪灵乐团，搭配黑暗歌词嘶吼的死亡重金属音乐， "We don't call ourselves death metal any more," insists Lim, who is expecting his first child with wife and Chthonic bass player Doris Yeh in February. "The metal rock music with this kind of roaring, screaming, singing style has been developed a lot. It is more mainstream now." Lim prefers to call it "extreme" or "symphonic" metal. ＂不过我们现在不再自称是黑死金属乐团了，我会叫它极限交响金属。＂ 目前林正在等待他的第一个小孩出生，他的太太也是闪灵的团员之一 Bridge for the young 成为年轻人的桥梁 The plates are now being cleared away – the fried chicken had just the right amount of spice but the overall meal was underwhelming. Still, the atmosphere was warm and perhaps the food would have been better had we sat up at the grill. 铁板烧师傅这时在煎鸡肉香香ＤＥＲ I ask Lim if the transition to politics has been difficult. 我问了林关於投入政治工作的困难之处 "When I entered parliament I was very uptight but now I am used to it so I can dress like this without tucking my shirt in, I can feel comfortable." 林： ＂刚开始进入国会时其实满紧张的，但现在就习惯了。＂ It seems like the right time to ask about his very elaborate tattoo which he says curls all the way up his arm and across his shoulder. 看来这是一个问他身上刺青事情的好时机 "It reflects my Taiwanese name, Lin Changzuo. Chang is eternal sunshine. A friend designed it and … this is the sunlight radiating out," he says pointing to the twisting pattern. ＂这个刺青来自於我自己的名字林昶佐，昶是永恒阳光的意思，朋友就帮我设计图案 并把他刺在身上＂ Will he stay in politics for a long time? 我接着问他会待在政治圈很久吗？ "My priority in running for office was to be the bridge," he says. how to …be involved in politics. I really hope in two years' time at the next local elections in 2018 or the Legislative Yuan elections in 2020 these young leaders can come forward to run. Then my mission will be complete." 他说： ＂我首要目标是要让我的办公室成为一个桥梁，推更多年轻人出来参战２０１８与 ２０２０的选举，这些年轻人将继续推动台湾向前行，而我的任务在那时 就会告一段落了＂ --

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※ 发信站: 批踢踢实业坊(ptt.cc) ※ 转录者: joe6304105 (1.164.151.121), 12/14/2016 19:55:58