作者theologe (表达你我的信仰~)
看板Christianity
标题[讨论] Luther拉丁文95条(1517)：3.#10-#19
时间Sun Aug 26 21:59:57 2018
[文本]
#10
甲：
Indocte et male faciunt sacerdotes ii, qui morituris penitentias canonicias
in purgatorium reservant.
（Ignorant and poorly those priests who are dying, reserve canonical penalties
for purgatory.）
乙：
那些在人临终时愚蠢、恶意行事的神父们，却把教会法的惩罚扩及炼狱之中。
神甫将教条，所定补赎给临死者留到炼狱，乃是无知邪恶的。
丙（1.www.luther.de; 2.bookofconcord.org; 3.www.uncommon-travel-germany.com；
後面顺序同）：
Those priests act ignorantly and wickedly who, in the case of the dying,
reserve canonical penalties for purgatory.
Ignorant and wicked are the doings of those priests who, in the case of the
dying, reserve canonical penances for purgatory.
Those priests act unreasonably and ill who reserve for Purgatory the penance
imposed on the dying.
丁：
Unwissend und schlecht handeln diejenigen Priester, die den Sterbenden
kirchliche Bußen für das Fegefeuer aufsparen.
(Ignorant and evil act those priests who are the dying
save church penances for purgatory.)
#11.
甲：
Zizania illa de mutanda pena Canonica in penam purgatorii videntur certe
dormientibus episcopis seminata.
（Tares of changing the canonical penalty to the penalty of purgatory at least
ormientibus sown while the bishops.）
乙：
将教会法的处罚改成炼狱处罚的那些稗子，显然是在主教们熟睡时由魔鬼撒下的。
（马太13：25）
将教条所定的惩罚变为炼狱中的惩罚，很显然是仇敌在主教们睡觉的时候所撒的一种
稗子。
丙：
Those tares of changing the canonical penalty to the penalty of purgatory
were evidently sown while the bishops slept (Mt 13:25).
This changing of the canonical penalty to the penalty of purgatory is quite
evidently one of the tares that were sown while the bishops slept.
This abuse of changing canonical penalty into the penalty of Purgatory seems
to have arisen when the bishops were asleep.
丁：
Die Meinung, daß eine kirchliche Bußstrafe in eine Fegefeuerstrafe
umgewandelt werden könne, ist ein Unkraut, das offenbar gesät worden ist,
während die Bischöfe schliefen.
(The opinion that a church penalty in a purgatory penalty
is a weed that has apparently been sown,
while the bishops slept.)
#12
甲：
Olim pene canonice non post, sed ante absolutionem imponebantur tanquam
tentamenta vere contritionis.
（Once the canonical not after, but before absolution were imposed tests of
true contrition.）
乙：
从前，作为真诚忏悔的考验，教会法的处罚是在赦罪之前，而不是在其後。
从前实施教条，所定的惩罚，并不是在宣赦之後，而是在宣赦之前，作为真正痛悔的
考验。
丙：
In former times canonical penalties were imposed, not after, but before
absolution, as tests of true contrition.
In former times canonical penalties were imposed, not after, but before
absolution, as tests of true contrition.
In times of yore, canonical penalties were imposed, not after, but before,
absolution, as tests of true repentance and affliction.
丁：
Früher wurden die kirchlichen Bußstrafen nicht nach, sondern vor der
Absolution auferlegt, gleichsam als Prüfstein für die Aufrichtigkeit der
Reue.
(Earlier, church penalties did not diminish, but before
Absolution imposed, as a test of the sincerity of Remorse.)
#13
甲：
Morituri per mortem omnia solvunt et legibus canonum morituri iam sunt,
habentes irue earum relaxationem.
(Dying are freed by death from all penalties; they are already part of the
dying as the canon laws are concerned, and have a right to be released from
them.)
乙：
临终之人因其死亡而摆脱了一切惩罚，对教会法已失去感觉，故有权免除其惩罚。
临死者因死亡就免除了一切惩罚，他们向教条的法规是己经死了，不再受它们的约束。
丙：
The dying are freed by death from all penalties, are already dead as far as
the canon laws are concerned, and have a right to be released from them.
The dying are freed by death from all penalties; they are already dead to
canonical rules, and have a right to be released from them.
The dying pay all penalties by their death, are already dead to the canons,
and rightly have exemption from them.
丁：
Die Sterbenden werden durch den Tod von allem gelöst, und für die
kirchlichen Satzungen sind sie schon tot, weil sie von Rechts wegen davon
befreit sind.
(The dying are solved by the death of everything, and for the
they are already dead according to ecclesiastical statutes, because of them
by law are liberated.)
#14
甲：
Imperfecta sanitas seu charitas morituri necessario secum fert magnum
timorem, tantoque maiorem, quanto minor ferit ipsa.
(The imperfect soundness or charity of a dying person necessarily brings with
it great fear; and the smaller than most, for so much less, he strikes her
any longer.)
乙：
不充分的虔诚和爱必然使临终之人感到无比恐惧，而且爱愈少，恐惧愈大。
临死者心灵的健康若不完全，那即是说，他的爱心若不完全，他便必大有恐惧，而且
爱心越小，恐惧就越大。
丙：
Imperfect piety or love on the part of the dying person necessarily brings
with it great fear; and the smaller the love, the greater the fear.
The imperfect health [of soul], that is to say, the imperfect love, of the
dying brings with it, of necessity, great fear; and the smaller the love,
the greater is the fear.
Imperfect spiritual health or love in the dying person necessarily brings
with it great fear; and the less this love is, the greater the fear it brings.
丁：
Ist die Haltung eines Sterbenden und die Liebe (Gott gegenüber)
unvollkommen, so bringt ihm das notwendig große Furcht, und diese ist um so
größer, je geringer jene ist.
(Is the attitude of a dying and the love (God opposite)
Imperfect, that brings him necessarily great fear, and this is all the more
bigger, the smaller this one is.)
#15
甲：
Hic timor et horror satis est se solo (ut alia taceam) facere penem
purgatorii, cum sit proximus desperationis horrori.
(This fear and horror is sufficient by itself (other things) the penalty of
purgatory, since it is next to the horror of despair.)
乙：
这种惊惧或恐怖，足以构成炼狱的惩罚，因为这是濒临绝望的恐惧。
单是这恐惧（且不说其他一切）就足以成为炼狱的惩罚，因其与绝望的恐惧相距不远。
丙：
This fear or horror is sufficient in itself, to say nothing of other things,
to constitute the penalty of purgatory, since it is very near to the horror
of despair.
This fear and horror is sufficient of itself alone (to say nothing of other
things) to constitute the penalty of purgatory, since it is very near to the
horror of despair.
This fear and horror - to say nothing of other things - are sufficient in
themselves to produce the punishment of Purgatory, because they approximate
to the horror of despair.
丁：
Diese Furcht und dieser Schrecken genügen für sich allein - um von anderem
zu schweigen -, die Pein des Fegefeuers auszumachen; denn sie kommen dem
Grauen der Verzweiflung ganz nahe.
(This fear and terror suffice on its own - for the sake of others
to be silent - to make out the pain of purgatory; because they come to that
Horror of despair near.)
#16
甲：
Videntur infernus, purgatorium, celum differre, sicut desperatio probe
deperatio, decuritas differunt.
(Hell, purgatory, and heaven seem to differ as despair, and assurance of
safety.)
乙：
地狱、炼狱和天堂的区别似乎就是绝望、恐惧和得救的信念。
地狱，炼狱，和天堂之间的区别，似乎是与绝望，将绝望，和确信之间的区别相同的。
丙：
Hell, purgatory, and heaven seem to differ the same as despair, fear, and
assurance of salvation.
Hell, purgatory, and heaven seem to differ as do despair, almost-despair,
and the assurance of safety.
Hell, Purgatory, and Heaven seem to differ as perfect despair, imperfect
despair, and security of salvation differ.
丁：
Es scheinen sich demnach Hölle, Fegefeuer und Himmel in der gleichen Weise
zu unterscheiden wie Verzweiflung, annähernde Verzweiflung und Sicherheit.
(So hell, purgatory, and heaven seem the same way
to be distinguished as desperation, approaching desperation and security.)
#17
甲：
Necassarium videtur animabus in purgatorio sciut minui horrorem, ita ugeri
charitatem.
(It seems as though for the souls in purgatory fear should necessarily
decrease and love increase.)
乙：
对炼狱中的灵魂来说，恐惧似乎会必然减少，爱心则相应地增长。
灵魂在炼狱里恐惧越减少，爱心便越增加，这似乎是确实的。
丙：
It seems as though for the souls in purgatory fear should necessarily
decrease and love increase.
With souls in purgatory it seems necessary that horror should grow less and
love increase.
It seems as must in Purgatory love in the souls increase, as fear
diminishes in them.
丁：
Offenbar haben die Seelen im Fegefeuer die Mehrung der Liebe genauso nötig
wie eine Minderung des Grauens.
(Apparently, souls in purgatory have the need to increase love as much
like a reduction of horror.)
#18
甲：
Nec probatum vidertur ullis aut rationibus aut scripturis, quod sint statum
meriti seu augende charitatis.
（Does not seem proved, on any grounds in abilities or any scriptures, that
they are the state of merit or of the increase of charity.）
乙：
此时，理性或圣经似乎都未证明，炼狱中的灵魂已超脱於功罪之外，不能滋长爱心。
我们由理智或圣经似乎都无法证明，这种灵魂不能建立功德，或增加他们的爱心。
丙：
Furthermore, it does not seem proved, either by reason or by Scripture, that
souls in purgatory are outside the state of merit, that is, unable to grow in
love.
It seems unproved, either by reason or Scripture, that they are outside the
state of merit, that is to say, of increasing love.
It does not seem to be proved either by arguments or by the Holy Writ
that they are outside the state of merit and demerit, or increase of love.
丁：
Offenbar ist es auch weder durch Vernunft- noch Schriftgründe erwiesen, daß
sie sich außerhalb des Zustandes befinden, in dem sie Verdienste erwerben
können oder in dem die Liebe zunehmen kann.
(Obviously, it has not been proved either by reason or by writing that
they are outside the state in which they earn merit
or in which love can increase.)
#19
甲：
Nec hoc probatum esse videtur, quod sint de sua betitudine certe et secure,
saltem, licet nos certissimi simus.
（Nor does this appear to be proved, that they are certain and assured of
their own salvation, or at least, though we may be quite certain of it.）
乙：
同时也没有证明，炼狱中的灵魂，至少不是全部，确信自己已经得救，
即使我们自己可能对此确信无疑。
虽然我们对他们的福祉也许很有把握，但是似乎也无法证明他们自己都有这种把握。
丙：
Nor does it seem proved that souls in purgatory, at least not all of them,
are certain and assured of their own salvation, even if we ourselves may be
entirely certain of it.
Again, it seems unproved that they, or at least that all of them, are
certain or assured of their own blessedness, though we may be quite
certain of it.
This, too, seems not to be proved, that they are all sure and confident of
their salvation, though we may be quite sure of it.
丁：
Offenbar ist auch dieses nicht erwiesen, daß sie - wenigstens nicht
alle - ihrer Seligkeit sicher und gewiß sind, wenngleich wir ihrer
völlig sicher sind.
（Apparently, this is not proven that they - at least not all - their
bliss are sure and certain, even though we are theirs are completely safe.）
--------------------------------------------------------------
[诠释1阶]（待完成）
10.还是会让人想到某教派的今生成圣不成，来世哀哭切齿中修炼的观点...
悔罪圣事（和好圣事）中三程序，痛悔-告解-补赎；
痛悔在当时中的定位中是否不清楚？
故#2，痛悔跟告解容易混为一谈；
而#3-4，路德某方面也认为痛悔跟补赎是一生的事情，要同时进行，
可能也是部份时人的想法？
无论如何，按#3-4，路德定调这个论纲讨论的焦点，
在於痛悔（内在对付）及补赎（外在对付）。
但这个过程都应该属於今世的范畴（#8），
痛悔跟补赎，其实可以对应我们现在的「成圣」概念，
也就是「进窄门」的过程。
进窄门应该是今世的范畴，不应该不过关却留到来世去哀哭切齿补修；
来世应该是神的恩典与大能直接作用与成就（#9）；
不过路德是说不应该把补赎留到来世去，
或者说教会的手不应该想要在来世的炼狱中可以捞一杯羹，
但路德在95条没有否定炼狱的存在，
那麽今世成圣/补赎不完全，以致於需要炼狱或哀哭切齿补习班这类的存在，
这个问题何解，
似乎路德在95条中仍没有提出解答--其实#14-17算是一种解答！
（我的话，是认为，即便今生後仍有不完全处，信到底就是进窄门，
不完全处，无论在千年国做王，或者在新天新地中，都仍可继续成长变化，
不需要跑去哀哭切齿或炼狱走一回。）
11.
12.
13.
14.
15.
16.
17.
18.
19.
--
你们中间有人对他们说：「平平安安地去吧！愿你们穿得暖，吃得饱」，
却不给他们身体所需用的，这有甚麽益处呢？（雅2：16）
--
※ 发信站: 批踢踢实业坊(ptt.cc), 来自: 106.104.38.8
※ 文章网址: https://webptt.com/cn.aspx?n=bbs/Christianity/M.1535292000.A.AE9.html
※ 编辑: theologe (106.104.38.8), 08/26/2018 22:01:19
1F：推 fyodor: 我找到另两种英译，贴在 08/27 01:57
3F：推 fyodor: 另外这里19英译Again, it seems unproved that they, or a 08/27 02:09
4F：→ fyodor: t least that all of them, are certain or assured of th 08/27 02:09
5F：→ fyodor: eir own blessedness, though we may be quite certain of 08/27 02:10
6F：→ fyodor: it.感觉怪怪， 可是我查这个译本的几个不同网页贴文，每 08/27 02:10
7F：→ fyodor: 一个都是这样子，各位大大看看是不是有问题。 08/27 02:10
我还没有细看，
新玩具是估狗翻译，拉丁文翻出来是：
Nor does this appear to be proved, that they are certain and assured of
their own salvation, or at least, though we may be quite certain of it.
不知道您觉得有问题之处为？
正文的英译文一大堆的"that"、代名词、关系代名词，是有点拗口、难解...
※ 编辑: theologe (211.75.23.84), 08/27/2018 16:19:49
8F：推 fyodor: 一开始我直觉that是not之误，但是我找了这个版本的其他来 08/27 20:10
9F：→ fyodor: 源，也都是用that,於是我就没有把握了。可是後来我找到 这 08/27 20:10
10F：→ fyodor: 个译本 08/27 20:10
12F：推 fyodor: 我觉得它有可能真的是误植 08/27 20:13
只能排看看...
Again, it seems unproved that they,
or
at least that all of them,
are certain or assured of
their own blessedness,
though we may be quite certain of it.
Nor does it seem proved that souls in purgatory,
at least not all of them,
are certain and assured of
their own salvation,
even if we ourselves
may be entirely certain of it.
Nor does this appear to be proved, that they
are certain and assured of
their own salvation,
or at least,
though we
may be quite certain of it.
Offenbar ist auch dieses nicht erwiesen, daß sie - wenigstens
nicht
alle - ihrer Seligkeit sicher und gewiß sind, wenngleich wir ihrer
völlig sicher sind.
（估狗翻译：
Apparently, this is not proven that they - at least
not all - their
bliss are sure and certain, even though we are theirs are completely safe.）
-------------------------------------
德文也是有加一个"nicht/not"，
但拉丁文真的就是一个"saltem（at least），"没有"not"，
可能"saltem"或"at least that all of them"有否定的意思？
还是单纯是错译？
-------------------------------------
但无论是英文的特别用法，或是错译，
协同书网站的那个英译版本，我应该会把参考顺位往後摆；
感谢fy指出来这个问题。
-------------------------------------
考虑书写的困难，
可能会朝每个分段，[文本]一篇，[诠释/议论]一篇的方式。
※ 编辑: theologe (211.75.23.84), 08/29/2018 22:09:35
13F：推 Kangin75: . 09/01 13:08
saltem（at least）的问题，
我丢到拉丁文版：
#1RXAB3mW (Latina)
主要是要修饰哪一个子句的问题：
「他们中间
至少有人对获得救恩确信」，
还是「
至少我们是对救恩确信」。
至於英译的两个版本，後来想想文意其实没有差别：
「
至少他们（炼狱中灵魂）全体对於救恩的确信，是
未证明的；但我们却是确信。」
「若非可证明他们
至少并非全体对於救恩有确信，即便我们是完全确信的。」
而若「至少」是修饰後一个子句，反而比较简单理解：
「他们对於救恩的确信是没有证明的，但
至少我们是确信的。」
※ 编辑: theologe (112.105.154.122), 09/03/2018 14:25:45