有个在这里瞎扯的人，发表了以下的言论： 作者 Xenogeous (非洲大陆) 看板 Christianity 标题 Re: [讨论] 驳错误之永生观 时间 Sun Nov 26 23:34:09 2017 召会的人根本不懂永生，【永生是一种关系】，永死也是一种关系， 永死是永远与神隔离的一种关系，【永生是永远与神同在的一种关系】。 进入永生就是耶稣说的「我在父里面，父在我里面」跟一般熟知的 信耶稣得永生，都是一样的永生。 ------------------------ XE宣称：『永生是一种关系』，这关系乃是『永生是永远与神同在的一种关系』。这种荒 谬的论点得到了本版『自封东正教代表』的掌声： 推 LaurenceS: 这个论点是符合圣传统的 11/27 00:25 当然，在拜读当代英语神学圈子中两位东正教神学的代表：Lossky和Ziziouslas後，（建 议『东正教代表』不妨去跟自己的叙利亚神甫打听打听这两位是谁？）对於『自封东正教 代表』的掌声，本人觉得蛮有意思的。当然，在『同等级对待』的原则下，还不必请他们 两位出场，先简单的google一下，就可以找到以下四分东正教的代表声明： 声明一、 https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/behind-the-scenes/2016/11/08/eastern-orthodox-theology-grace-shanbour/ The Eastern Orthodox Theology of Grace: An Interview with Fr. Michael Shanbour November 8, 2016 ‧ Kevin Allen Secondly, and more importantly, how I understand grace will determine how I live my life. If grace is essentially a legal declaration of innocence by God, I will live in one way. If that grace cannot be lost (“once saved, always saved”), I may live differently. If acquiring grace is a function of my individual relationship with Jesus, unrelated to church or sacrament or doctrine, my approach is affected. If it is simply an idea, a philosophical concept that presents me with an assurance of forgiveness, the way I live may be functionally irrelevant. 【But if grace is a tangible and life-giving gift of divine life, a participation in the life of God,】 we have something entirely different. 声明二、 https://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-faith/doctrine-scripture/the-holy-trinity/the-three-divine-persons Volume I - Doctrine and Scripture The Holy Trinity The Three Divine Persons We discover, therefore, one God the Father Almighty with His one unique Son (Image and Word) and His one Holy Spirit.【 There is one living God with His one perfect divine Life, who is personally the Son, with His one Spirit of Life.】 There is one True God with His one divine Truth, who is personally the Son, with His one Spirit of Truth. There is one wise and loving God with His one Wisdom and Love, who is personally the Son, with His one Spirit of Wisdom and Love. The examples could go on indefinitely: the one divine Father personifying every aspect of His divinity in His one divine Son, who is personally activated by His one divine Spirit. We will see the living implications of the Trinity as we survey the activity of God in his actions toward man and the world. 声明三、 http://www.jacwell.org/Supplements/sacred_gift_of_life.htm The Sacred Gift of Life: Orthodox Christianity and Bioethics by Fr. John Breck (St. Vladimir’s Seminary Press, 1998) This chapter is made available by permission of the Press. Introduction (pages 5-18) In the language of the Eastern Church Fathers, this transcendent destiny or telos of human existence is expressed as theosis or "deification." To the patristic mind, God in his innermost being remains forever transcendent, beyond all we can know or experience. An unbridgeable gulf separates the creature from the Creator, human nature from divine nature. 【The Orthodox teaching on theosis nevertheless affirms that our primal vocation or calling is to participate in divine life itself, to "ascend to the house of our God," where we shall enjoy eternal communion with the three Persons of the Holy Trinity.】 How does Orthodox teaching resolve this tension between the absolute transcendence of God and his accessibility in the life of faith? We can answer the question, briefly and schematically, in the following way. 声明四、 https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/easternchristianinsights/2016/06/11/not-escaping-world-holy-homily-sunday-ascension-orthodox-church/ On Not Escaping the World, But Being Holy in It: Homily for the Sunday After the Ascension in the Orthodox Church June 11, 2016 ‧ Fr. Philip LeMasters Today we commemorate 【the Holy Fathers of the First Ecumenical Council of Nicaea, who proclaimed that the One Who brings human beings into the eternal life of God is Himself truly divine and eternal:】 the only begotten Son of the Father. They recognized that even the best angel, prophet, or teacher could not do that, 【for only One Who is divine and eternal can bring us into the divine, eternal life of the Holy Trinity.】 That is a key reason why the Council of Nicaea rejected the teaching of the heretic Arius, who did not think that the Son was fully or eternally God. That is why the Orthodox Church has always disagreed with those who seek to reduce Christ to a great religious teacher or moral example, or who view the Kingdom of God as a mere extension of an earthly kingdom of whatever kind. Our salvation comes not merely through instruction or social change, but through the New Adam Who conquers death and ascends to heavenly glory as the God-Man. 。。。 Some think that salvation will come to the world through changes of this or that kind in politics, culture, or economics. Others focus their hopes on changing how people think, feel, or otherwise adjust themselves in relation to various challenges in life. Some ways of addressing such matters are clearly better than others, but none of them fulfills our vocation to be in God’s image and likeness. 【None of them conquers death and makes us participants in the eternal life of our Lord.】 None of them can ascend to heaven. 这四份材料中有5句具有代表意义的话： A、But if grace is a tangible and life-giving gift of divine life, a participation in the life of God, 然而，如果恩典是神圣生命可触及并赐生命的恩典，就是有份於神的生命。 B、There is one living God with His one perfect divine Life, who is personally the Son, with His one Spirit of Life. 是有一位戴着祂自己完美神圣生命的活神，祂从位格而言就是子，并带着祂自己那一位生 命的圣灵。 C、The Orthodox teaching on theosis nevertheless affirms that our primal vocation or calling is to participate in divine life itself, to "ascend to the house of our God," where we shall enjoy eternal communion with the three Persons of the Holy Trinity. 东正教教导的神化（theosis）就是肯定我们首要的呼召就是有份与神圣生命自己，要『 上升到我们的神的家中，』我们在那里将享受与神圣三一的三个位格的永远交通。 D、the Holy Fathers of the First Ecumenical Council of Nicaea, who proclaimed that the One Who brings human beings into the eternal life of God is Himself truly divine and eternal:。。。for only One Who is divine and eternal can bring us into the divine, eternal life of the Holy Trinity. 第一次尼西亚大公教会的神圣教父们，宣称一位将人类带入神永远生命的那位自己就是神 圣和永远的：。。。因为只有一位是神圣和永远的，能够把我们带入神圣三一的神圣，永 远的生命。 E、None of them conquers death and makes us participants in the eternal life of our Lord. 他们没有任何人征服死亡并让我们在我们的主的永远生命中有份。 上面的段落让我们看见，东正教教导的『神化』教义，就是一个让信徒能够有份於神圣三 一之『神圣+永远生命』的呼召。在整个正统神学中『神的神圣』和『神的永远』是一体 两面的，不能被拆分。因此，『神的神圣生命』就是『神的永远生命』。有份於『神神圣 的生命』，就是有份於『神永远的生命』。 然而，XE荒谬的把这个『生命』定义为『关系』。而『关系』是什麽呢？天主教方面说： http://www.apostles.tw/dict/m/dict32m/T206.htm 206 位格 wèigé PERSON 参阅： 119主体 696关系 45天主圣三 6二性一位的结合 166自立性 (1) 一般而言，【位格乃是具有理性的个别体，整个存在及其活动与『关系』的最後主体 】。在以往的教会神哲学思想中，位格的概念，往往集中在自立体、整体性、独一性和行 动主体性四方面，而较少指出【位格的关系面】。如果前面四个面目是位格的主要因素， 所谓的位际关系，自然就是两个有分别的、独立的主体之间的交往、对话。这就是西方的 基督徒在灵修及礼仪生活中较强调的位际性的态度。 。。。。 (二)圣经： 圣经作者虽不用「位格」概念述说有关人的道理，但在许许多多的叙述里有自立体，【有 行动主体，有关系，明显表达出一个「位格」的事实。】例如：召唤：出三4记载上主见 梅瑟走向焚而不毁的荆棘观看，便叫他，他立刻回答，显出其中有召唤者及被召唤者。伯 多禄等宗徒蒙召(若一38，24)，保禄宗徒归化(宗九4～5)，也都因经验到召唤者与被召唤 者间的位际知遇。所谓「盟约」，双方之间订立合同，就指出那是人与天主两位之间的事 。 还有一份材料： http://www.chinesetheology.com/LoboTsang/Trinity.htm 三位一体论 曾汉乔 上载日期2006/9/19 回到 曾汉乔神学网站 回到 华人神学园地主页 一. 引言：「三为一体」或「三位一体」？ 顺带一提早期教父特土良(Tertullian)(约160-220)是第一位使用「三一(拉丁文 Trinitas)」的神学家。[12]【第一个用「位格」(person) 一词来分析三一论『关系』的 作者】，首用拉丁字trinitas(三位一体) 来指上帝，并且最早发展出三个位格，一个实 体(one substance in three persons)的公式语。[13] 这两份资料让我们看见，『关系』乃是跟『位格』有关的，被用来描述三位一体中三个位 格的活动或互动。 当XE宣称：『永生是一种关系』的时候，他已经把『永生』放在所谓『经纶三一（ Economy Trinity）』的架构下面，将其等同於『位格』——父、子和圣灵间的不同。而 不是在『素质三一（Essential Trinity）』下面，用来描述父、子和圣灵间相同的『性 质（nature）/素质（essence）/实质（substance）』——『生命』，的观念之下。 而，更好玩的是，阿拉伯的劳伦斯还来一句：『这个论点是符合圣传统的』？！（难道阿拉伯的劳伦斯也认为『经纶三一』=『素质三一』？） 这麽说来，当阿拉伯的劳伦斯『有份於神的生命』的时候，就是『有份於神圣三一间的关 系』了！而这个关系只有3种可能： 1- 父与子间的关系 2- 父与圣灵间的关系 3- 子与圣灵间的关系 不知道阿拉伯的劳伦斯想要『有份於』那一个？ 当然，阿拉伯的劳伦斯会说：『这不是我讲的，你不要栽赃！』（呵呵，神学的定义是很 严谨的，你稀里糊涂的讲，被批，岂不是活该？！）好，我们再退一步，用【永生是永远 与神同在的一种关系。进入永生就是耶稣说的「我在父里面，父在我里面」】这个『神人 关系』的定义。 『耶稣说的「我在父里面，父在我里面」』这句话有个大前提，就是： 1Jn 5:11 这见证就是神赐给我们永生；这永生也是在他儿子里面。 1Jn 5:12 人有了神的儿子就有生命，没有神的儿子就没有生命。 根据这两节，永远的生命在耶稣基督里面；人有了耶稣基督，才有永远的生命。接下来， 才能成为『神的儿子』，与神建立『关系』。否认，做一个没有耶稣基督，没有神的生命 的不信者，跟神是『没有关系』的。（最多是造物主和被造之物的关系，跟阿猫阿狗差不 多。） 请问阿拉伯的劳伦斯，您是先『与神建立关系』，才『得到永远的生命』呢？还是『先得 到永远的生命』，再『与神建立关系』？ 别在『对自己不了解的东西鼓掌』，免得被我消遣：先归正你们东正教後，再来『为自己 不了解的东西鼓掌』。 ×××××××××××××××××××× 不过，在这里，我觉得蛮好玩的是，有一种『以公开打自己宗派的脸』为荣的刺激活动不 断上演。例如： 三尺专打改革宗/浸信会的脸 TF专打TJC的脸 阿拉伯的劳伦斯专打东正教的脸 还好，我们地方召会的都很乖！^___^ ×××××××××××××××××××× --

※ 发信站: 批踢踢实业坊(ptt.cc), 来自: 101.9.130.73 ※ 文章网址: https://webptt.com/cn.aspx?n=bbs/Christianity/M.1511745011.A.882.html ※ 编辑: df31 (101.9.130.73), 11/27/2017 09:14:37 三尺=TF；TF=三尺！二合一，一为二。令人佩服感叹啊！ ※ 编辑: df31 (101.9.130.73), 11/27/2017 09:55:00